Was Jesus God?

Quote: FrGamble

is really the basis to the western world's laws. I believe it is true and a universal norm.

You do everything in reverse. You see
something and reverse engineer it to
your liking and then proclaim it to be
true. You think you see a creation so
you invent a creator. You think the
universe recognizes right and wrong,
so you invent sin. You see a system of
morals adopted by most societies so
they can get along with each other, and
proclaim them universal truths. Then
you get the ignorant to follow you.

Is the opposite that you do better? You see creation and then deny a creator. You recognize a right and wrong but deny sin. You see a system of morals adopted by most successful societies and deny that it can be universal. I am trying to square what we see in reality with logical and reason. You seem hell bent on seeing reality and making it nonsensical.

Quote: FrGamble

You gave a few examples a bit ago explaining a bit about your moral system and I tried to explain a little bit about why it was wrong and certainly not universal.

Not so. you tried to explain why it wasn't Christian.

That's a very wrong assumption you keep making. You may as well ask a Jew how she relates to Jesus, or an atheist how she ensures "salvation."

All we have are the observations, preferences, wisdom, knowledge, prejudices and thoughts of other people. branding one set of these "divine" and claiming it comes from an omnipotent deity doesn't make it divine, and certainly does not make it right. It does mean people will be less inclined to question it, and even when they do they'll seize on any explanation, however much rationalized, as a drowning person seizes on a lifeline and for the same reason.

Quote: Nareed

... You may as well ask a Jew how she relates to Jesus,

As competition for the vig?

I don't understand why the Christians continue to suck up to them? Maybe it is the same reason that Lowe's and Home Depot are always near each other, or why McDonalds's builds next to Taco Bell?

Quote: FrGamble

Is the opposite that you do better? You see creation and then deny a creator. You recognize a right and wrong but deny sin. .

You know very well I don't see a creation,
I've certainly said it enough times. You
know my stand on sin, it doesn't exist.

Here's your teaching style. Keep calling
the red balloon purple, and eventually
the person you're talking too will be
calling it purple just to make you happy.
Do it long enough and he'll think it
really is purple. It's a form of brain
washing, all cults do it to some extent. You
think you're right about everything you
believe, so you think you're doing it for
the persons own good.

You're not. You're doing it for completely
selfish reasons, it's all about you.

Quote: Nareed

Not so. you tried to explain why it wasn't Christian.

That's a very wrong assumption you keep making. You may as well ask a Jew how she relates to Jesus, or an atheist how she ensures "salvation."

Good point.

Quote:

All we have are the observations, preferences, wisdom, knowledge, prejudices and thoughts of other people. branding one set of these "divine" and claiming it comes from an omnipotent deity doesn't make it divine, and certainly does not make it right. It does mean people will be less inclined to question it, and even when they do they'll seize on any explanation, however much rationalized, as a drowning person seizes on a lifeline and for the same reason.

We seem to have a conundrum because as you point out all that we believe ultimately boils down to authority. I claim divine authority for my belief system and you just as strongly claim authoritatively to know that there is not a God and that you are right. So one or hopefully both of us have to be willing to let go of our clenched fists holding onto what we believe is authoritative and look at these things objectively and see perhaps if there is a reason the Judeo-Christian ethic has been for so long the standard on which laws and morality have been built. More than just pointing out why some of the values you presented were not Christian I think I also tried to show why practically they didn't work in real life and with a proper understanding of who we are as human beings.

Quote: Evenbob

You know very well I don't see a creation,
I've certainly said it enough times. You
know my stand on sin, it doesn't exist.

Oh boy, you certainly do see things and you know they were created. You don't logically follow the trail back to an ultimate creator we call God but surely you see matter and things around you and realize that they had to come from somewhere, even you can't be that obtuse to deny this can you? can you...?

I know very well your stance on sin, at least your stance on sin as you narrowly define it to make your strange point. However, I also know from many, many posts that you strongly believe in right and wrong. How you reconcile your disbelief in sin but your acknowledgment of wrong in the world is as confusing to me as your justification as an atheist for eternal matter and the idea that we have eternal souls that are reincarnated forever and ever. Amen.

Quote:

Here's your teaching style. Keep calling
the red balloon purple, and eventually
the person you're talking too will be
calling it purple just to make you happy.

Actually I am hoping that the person will take off the red sunglasses so they can see the truth that the balloon is purple.

Quote:

You're not. You're doing it for completely
selfish reasons, it's all about you.

You really know how to push my buttons and hurt me. I really wish you would explain yourself instead of making such awful accusations that go against everything I believe and am. Some days I just can't stand you and I'm sorry.

Quote: FrGamble

Oh boy, you certainly do see things and you know they were created.

Oh no I don't, and you know dang well
I don't. I see existence and consciousness.
I don't see a creation at all. You only see
one because you've been told to. You
don't seem to have to the ability to separate
reality from what you've been told. Maybe
later, it happens all the time. You still have
a chance to lead a normal life.

Quote:

You really know how to push my buttons and hurt me. .

The vast majority of our actions are for selfish
reasons, we very seldom do something we
don't want to do. You believe what you've been
told is true, so you think you're doing somebody
a favor by enlightening them and getting them to
believe as you do. It makes you feel good to do
this, you are motivated by selfishness. But you've
been taught that's a bad thing, so you feel (here it
comes) guilt at the possibility, and so deny that it
could be true.

Almost everything I do is out of selfishness, I want
to be doing it, it pleases me to do it. Even the nut
case Christian who beats himself with a whip is
acting selfishly. He wants the pain, he feels good
about the pain.

Quote: FrGamble

We seem to have a conundrum because as you point out all that we believe ultimately boils down to authority.

No, it doesn't. I've expounded on my reasons to believe there is no such thing as a deity. None are blind acceptance of authority or anything remotely close. And even if I were to grant your arbitrary assertion that a "non-contingent" entity is necessary, that 1) does not prove the existence of any deity and 2) does not prove the existence of the Biblical god.

Quote:

[..]and see perhaps if there is a reason the Judeo-Christian ethic has been for so long the standard on which laws and morality have been built.

So your "objective" criteria for validity is either popularity or longevity? Does that make Taylor Swift the One True God? Until her popularity peaks, of course. Prior True Gods would include Michael Jackson and George, John, Paul and Ringo.

Quote:

More than just pointing out why some of the values you presented were not Christian I think I also tried to show why practically they didn't work in real life and with a proper understanding of who we are as human beings.

Your standard of value is "salvation." By that measure, the only "practical and proper understanding" of humanity is the Catholic one in your case. And we're back where we started.

Quote: Nareed

So your "objective" criteria for validity is either popularity or longevity?

Absolutely not, why does this keep coming up? My objective criteria is truth and reason. I think rational people can use common sense and reason to recognize when something is practical and true. Its popularity and longevity are signposts that give credibility but even if those things aren't there it doesn't mean that something is or is not true and reasonable.

Quote:

Your standard of value is "salvation." By that measure, the only "practical and proper understanding" of humanity is the Catholic one in your case. And we're back where we started.

We can translate "salvation" to happiness or the best life possible and then we can all speak the same language to determine the practical and proper understanding of humanity.