Was Jesus God?

Quote: FrGamble

Absolutely not, why does this keep coming up?

You tell me why you keep bringing it up:

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[..] and see perhaps if there is a reason the Judeo-Christian ethic has been for so long the standard on which laws and morality have been built.

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We can translate "salvation" to happiness or the best life possible and then we can all speak the same language to determine the practical and proper understanding of humanity.

You can translate it to fish heads for all I care. As it is, I haven't the vaguest notion of what it even means. But if it meant happiness, it would be called "happiness," and if it meant fish heads, it would be called that, too.

Quote: FrGamble

Absolutely not, why does this keep coming up? My objective criteria is truth and reason. I think rational people can use common sense and reason to recognize when something is practical and true. Its popularity and longevity are signposts that give credibility but even if those things aren't there it doesn't mean that something is or is not true and reasonable.
.

There is nothing rational about sin or
salvation. In fact, the opposite is true.
And if popularity and longevity are
your signposts, why aren't you a Hindu?
That religion predates even Judaism.

If sin and and salvation are rational, the
earth is truly a loony bin. If sin and salvation
are real, science makes no sense at all.

Quote: Evenbob

If sin and and salvation are rational, the
earth is truly a loony bin. If sin and salvation
are real, science makes no sense at all.

Can you explain your reasons for this statement?

Quote: FrGamble

Can you explain your reasons for this statement?

Sin and salvation are the height of
superstition. That there would be a god
that's so offended by our thoughts
and actions, that he has to send a son
to save us from ourselves, if this was
true, the world would be insane. Off it's
rocker.

It flies in the face of everything we learn
from science. Women do not get impregnated
by gods. People don't walk on water and
change physical objects into different physical
objects (water into wine). Men don't die and
get up alive three days and walk around and
talk to people. The tombs of long dead Jewish
saints don't fly open and the saints come back
to life and walk among the people.

Science and superstition cannot exist together.
Science kills superstition dead every time. In
reality, you cannot have the Jesus story exist
in the same world as science. They cancel each
other out. You have to pick one or the other,
the only place both exist together is a world of
insanity and denial. If you accept the world of
science, Jesus and his story must be taken as a myth.

If you accept the Jesus myth as literal truth, you're
you're living in an outpatient mental ward where
you can't see the difference between superstition
and reality. The only reason you stay there is not
because of prayer, not because god exists. You stay
there because you're surrounded by enablers who
believe as you do. That's how superstitions are kept
alive and well, even the most goofy ones. If most of
the people you know believe something, it has to be
true.

Quote: Evenbob

Sin and salvation are the height of
superstition. That there would be a god
that's so offended by our thoughts
and actions, that he has to send a son
to save us from ourselves, if this was
true, the world would be insane. Off it's
rocker.

Is it strange to you that a loving father would be hurt by his children doing things that were bad for them and others? Is it insane that this father would desire to do whatever he could to save his children from their mistakes and the consequences? Is it difficult to conceive of a father who would even be willing to die for his children so that they would be saved from harm?

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It flies in the face of everything we learn
from science.

So does things like reincarnation or other supernatural phenomenon. Science is great for understanding our natural world but it cannot speak about the supernatural.

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Science and superstition cannot exist together.

This is true but a historical person with witnesses and followers who lived, died, and resurrected is not superstition. A person who had such a world changing influence on the world is also not a superstition.

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The only reason you stay there is not
because of prayer, not because god exists. You stay
there because you're surrounded by enablers who
believe as you do. That's how superstitions are kept
alive and well, even the most goofy ones. If most of
the people you know believe something, it has to be
true.

Nope, not even close really. As already mentioned Christianity is not a superstition and I believe it because God exists and because of the very real relationship I have with Christ through prayer. I also believe it because it makes sense of the world and helps me understand myself and humanity.

I'm not sure if it is this thread or another but Nareed asked me point blank if I believed in the real persons of Adam and Eve and how I squared that with evolution. I never got to answer that good question in the frenzy of these threads.

I do believe that Adam and Eve were real persons and the first human beings with immortal souls. I have no problem with bodily evolution, meaning that the physical bodies of human being evolved over time under the direction of God to the point when two people were chosen to be our first parents and given that perfect relationship with God where they were completely in union with their creator in perfection. I think the studies about the human species shows over and over again that genetically we are all descended from the same ancestors. These studies analyzing mitochondrial DNA and Y-chromosomal DNA point to a primordial biological Eve and Adam from which we are all descended. From these two first humans all of us living today are descended.

Quote: FrGamble

Is it strange to you that a loving father would be hurt by his children doing things that were bad for them

A real flesh and blood father, no. A god
that only exists in your head, yes. That's
beyond weird.

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So does things like reincarnation or other supernatural phenomenon.

Reincarnation is not supernatural, it's part of the
natural way the world works. Scientific evidence
points to it, undeniable evidence.

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This is true but a historical person with witnesses and followers who lived, died, and resurrected is not superstition.

Here we go again. There is not one shred
of evidence the Jesus myth is true, if there
was, you would present it. An anecdotal book
written 2000 years ago is not proof of anything.

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I also believe it because it makes sense of the world and helps me understand myself and humanity.

You do realize Aesops Fables help and have
helped people do that very thing, right? You
have a myth that helps you, stop the presses.

Quote: FrGamble

I do believe that Adam and Eve were real persons and the first human beings with immortal souls.

You say Genesis is a myth, but not Adam
and Eve. What?

Quote: Evenbob

A real flesh and blood father, no. A god
that only exists in your head, yes. That's
beyond weird.

So the concept is not strange or insane to you, it is just your insistence that God does not exist that is the problem. Your circular logic continues to amaze me. A loving father makes sense but it doesn't apply to God because there is no God. Why? Because God does not exist.

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Reincarnation is not supernatural, it's part of the
natural way the world works. Scientific evidence
points to it, undeniable evidence.

Maybe you should make your case in the thread about reincarnation, there are some very real challenges to your claim that you refuse to address.

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Here we go again. There is not one shred
of evidence the Jesus myth is true, if there
was, you would present it. An anecdotal book
written 2000 years ago is not proof of anything.

Everything from the most attested ancient writings by leaps and bounds to the witness of billions of people to the fact of miracles to the influence of Christ on our world is dismissed as not evidence. Again circular reasoning. There is no evidence for Jesus. [evidence is given] That is not evidence. Why? Because that is not evidence.

Quote: FrGamble

A loving father makes sense but it doesn't apply to God because there is no God.

Nothing can apply to something that
doesn't exist. Your answer to everything
is: Yeah, but.

Yeah, but what if he did exist, you say.
'Yeah, but' is not an argument that gets
you anywhere. You're really ugly. Yeah,
but what if I wasn't. You're really dumb.
Yeah, but what if I wasn't. You might
as well say 'oh yeah? Well your mom
wears army boots'. It makes as much
sense as 'yeah, but what if god does
exist'.

He doesn't.

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Maybe you should make your case in the thread about reincarnation

I have no case, it's not mine to make.
I have no interest in reincarnation
outside of the evidence presented.
It's not a religion, it's not a cause,
it doesn't effect my life and how I
live it. I could care less how anyone
else reacts to the evidence. I know
this is impossible for you to understand,
please don't hurt yourself trying.

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Why? Because that is not evidence.

If you had real evidence, you would present
it. Anecdotal word of mouth is evidence of
nothing. In fact, it's usually evidence against
whatever point they're trying to make.