Was Jesus God?

Quote: Evenbob

Nothing can apply to something that
doesn't exist.

Sometimes I just say No. Please come back when you really want to discuss these things intelligently. You can't keep repeating there is no God and ignoring the evidence that there is by saying over and over again the same incorrect things.

Quote: FrGamble

S You can't keep repeating there is no God and ignoring the evidence that there is

Sadly for you, some day you will realize
there is no evidence and have to take it
on faith, as you're meant to. This will
really test you, and I wonder if you're up
to it. You are so gung ho on proving
the unproveable, you might not have
it in you to go on faith alone. Many
don't.

The silly traps we set for ourselves, they
never end.

You interchange the words evidence and proof very often. While I know there is no proof for the truth I know about Jesus Christ and I love Him through my faith I do know there is evidence for Him, the power of His message, the Resurrection, and His historical person. I wonder if you will be able to handle it when you realize their is such evidence and have to actually look at these issues seriously.

Quote: FrGamble

I know about Jesus Christ and I love Him through my faith I do know there is evidence for Him,.

You and I have different standards for
evidence. Mine is average, you want to
believe, so yours is low. You rigged the
game for yourself, I refuse to do that.

Quote: FrGamble

I think the studies about the human species shows over and over again that genetically we are all descended from the same ancestors. These studies analyzing mitochondrial DNA and Y-chromosomal DNA point to a primordial biological Eve and Adam from which we are all descended. From these two first humans all of us living today are descended.

Yes, we are all descended from the same ancestors. No, they were NOT only two people.

They certainly were NOT two people born as fully-formed adults, nor did they live in a super-privileged spot without predators, disease or parasites, and where food was so abundant they didn't need to even forage for it. They did not live for centuries, nor were they asexual for a portion of their lives.

You know, there is only so much change there can be between one species and its predecessor. In other words, don't expect mutations like those you find in comic books like X-Men.

It seems obvious that there were people outside of the garden of eden.

[4:14] Today you have driven me away from the soil, and I shall be hidden from your face; I shall be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth, and anyone who meets me may kill me."
[4:15] Then the LORD said to him, "Not so! Whoever kills Cain will suffer a sevenfold vengeance." And the LORD put a mark on Cain, so that no one who came upon him would kill him.

who would meet him?

[4:16] Then Cain went away from the presence of the LORD, and settled in the land of Nod, east of Eden.
[4:17] Cain knew his wife, and she conceived and bore Enoch; and he built a city, and named it Enoch after his son Enoch.

who was his wife?

[4:18] To Enoch was born Irad; and Irad was the father of Mehujael, and Mehujael the father of Methushael, and Methushael the father of Lamech.

who were their wives?

and it goes on from there, and then

[4:25] Adam knew his wife again, and she bore a son and named him Seth, for she said, "God has appointed for me another child instead of Abel, because Cain killed him."
[4:26] To Seth also a son was born, and he named him Enosh. At that time people began to invoke the name of the LORD.

and

[5:3] When Adam had lived one hundred thirty years, he became the father of a son in his likeness, according to his image, and named him Seth.
[5:4] The days of Adam after he became the father of Seth were eight hundred years; and he had other sons and daughters.

Adam and Eve had their 3rd child Seth, and then who did Seth marry?


The only choices here are there were other people, or there were other children of Adam and Eve and everyone practiced incest. We know from the story of Noah that incest is bad ([9:22] And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brothers outside.)

Quote: Dalex64

The only choices here are there were other people, or there were other children of Adam and Eve and everyone practiced incest.

If you start out with one breeding pair, of any species, and no others, then it's either incest or extinction.

And if the one and only breeding pair produces only male offspring, then it's extinction.

Aside from incest, there will be several generations with severe genetic defects, as the abundance of recessive genes makes bad gene pairs all too likely.

As science shows us there was an original breeding pair of human beings that all living people today are descended from. While there might have been other human beings around physiologically they were not endowed with an immortal soul and the unique characteristics of intelligence and the like that we uniquely have. Nevertheless when a human being with the gift of an immortal soul mates with another physiological human being their offspring would have such a soul and the human race could have grown in that way along with incest, which would not carry with it the problems it does today until much later when around the time of Noah and Leviticus the practice was forbidden. I think this would explain the questions that Dalex had in regards to the other people around in Genesis.

Quote: FrGamble

As science shows us there was an original breeding pair of human beings that all living people today are descended from.

You're going to have to provide a citation for that. We don't have enough intact DNA from early humans, or even hominids, to even come close to such a determination. Besides:

Quote:

While there might have been other human beings around physiologically

Then there wasn't one breeding pair, but many.

Quote:

they were not endowed with an immortal soul and the unique characteristics of intelligence and the like that we uniquely have.

How do you determine this? A soul gene?

Not to mention it sounds awfully racist. I mean, here you have other beings who have the same average genetic makeup as your humans, but are not themselves human? Think about this. Think about this very, very hard.

Now, if Jehovah created human-shaped animals for your original humans to breed with... Wow! That one's too easy.

Quote: FrGamble

As science shows us there was an original breeding pair of human beings that all living people today are descended from.

I'm going to have to ask you to cite something now.

Quote:

While there might have been other human beings around physiologically they were not endowed with an immortal soul and the unique characteristics of intelligence and the like that we uniquely have.

Quote:

Nevertheless when a human being with the gift of an immortal soul mates with another physiological human being their offspring would have such a soul and the human race could have grown in that way along with incest,

sounds like your own personal theory. is that backed up by any scripture or science? As far as I know the official policy is there were no other physiological human beings. you can't have an offspring with a soul from the mating of a souled and soulless human if there were no soulless humans.

Quote:

which would not carry with it the problems it does today until much later when around the time of Noah and Leviticus the practice was forbidden.

again speculation at best as to how long creatures with 'perfect' dna could mate with eachother without defect.

Quote:

I think this would explain the questions that Dalex had in regards to the other people around in Genesis.

I can link to a bunch of places that explain how science proves that we could NOT have come from a single breeding pair.

http://biologos.org/blogs/dennis-venema-letters-to-the-duchess/does-genetics-point-to-a-single-primal-couple

https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2013/11/26/the-adam-and-eve-debacle-continues-science-drives-theologians-into-a-frenzy-of-fabrication/

finally, the Mitochondrial Eve - who was not the Eve of Adam and Eve, and the mitochondrial Adam may not have even existed at the same time as this Mitochondrial Eve
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve

in particular, look under Common Misconceptions about Mitochondrial Eve.

I will highlight the "Not the Only Woman" paragraph, emphasis added:

Quote:

One misconception surrounding mitochondrial Eve is that since all women alive today descended in a direct unbroken female line from her, she must have been the only woman alive at the time. However, nuclear DNA studies indicate that the size of the ancient human population never dropped below tens of thousands. Other women living during Eve's time have descendants alive today but at some point in the past, each of their lines of descent did not produce a female who reproduced, thereby breaking the mitochondrial DNA lines of descent.