Was Jesus God?

Quote: FrGamble

What possible value system could lead anyone not to believe in God?

One that places a high worth on reason and happiness.

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How can you have a moral system with things that are truly right or wrong without God?

There is no god. We have moral systems. The syllogism does not even need to be written out.

Quote: Nareed

One that places a high worth on reason and happiness.

We share some of the same values and they led me directly to God, how strange?

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There is no god. We have moral systems. The syllogism does not even need to be written out.

Because it cannot. Without God our moral systems rest on changing things like ourselves (the worst moral system) or governments, society, etc. In all these cases we cannot say something is good or bad objectively only that it is good or bad because I say so or because the government or society says so. We need something universal and objective so that we can say rape for example is objectively evil in all cases and we base this on natural law, reason, and God. This is why I am surprised that for someone who values reason and happiness you would not recognize that to be happy we need universal moral truths that cannot be based just on what people want to believe is good or bad.

Quote: FrGamble

In all these cases we cannot say something is good or bad objectively only that it is good or bad because I say so or because the government or society says so.

Or because the prejudices, preferences, opinions and whims of a desert tribe say so?

So, one moral system comes from society itself, making their own rules to live by, and determining for themselves what is just.

Another moral system comes from people who claim that "god said so"

My only observation for now.

I think we also have to recognize the important philosophical difference between grounding morality in God and deciding what is moral by ourselves or some other changeable thing. You can say that the Bible's moral system does not come from God and is just another society making up their own morality, but at least they are reasonable enough to recognize that some universal norm for all human beings must exist as a foundation of what is right and wrong in every society.

Quote: FrGamble

I think we also have to recognize the important philosophical difference between grounding morality in God and deciding what is moral by ourselves.

They're exactly the same because there is no
god. That you don't see this is remarkable. Do
atheists act any different than the god believers
do? You can't tell if someone is an atheist, you
have to ask them.

You think you do everything thru the filter of a
god, when it's really just you who's deciding &
who's doing the filtering. You have blinders on.

Quote: FrGamble

You can say that the Bible's moral system does not come from God and is just another society making up their own morality,

That's what it is.

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but at least they are reasonable enough to recognize that some universal norm for all human beings must exist as a foundation of what is right and wrong in every society.

You claim to be familiar with philosophy. Can you name a single philosopher since Socrates who doesn't pose universal norms?

Quote: Nareed

You claim to be familiar with philosophy. Can you name a single philosopher since Socrates who doesn't pose universal norms?

You are right I can't name any good ones who don't pose universal norms, because THE universal norm is truth. If you are willing to pose that your moral system is true than I will listen to you. If you however want to pose some personal system of values that is not universal true but only good for you than that is false and a travesty. If something is true it is true for everyone and everyplace and every time. You gave a few examples a bit ago explaining a bit about your moral system and I tried to explain a little bit about why it was wrong and certainly not universal. The moral system given to this ancient tribe in the desert so long ago that we have come to know as the Judeo-Christian morality is really the basis to the western world's laws. I believe it is true and a universal norm.

Quote: FrGamble

.... THE universal norm is truth.

THE universal norm is deceipt, and obfuscation.

That does seem to be the case now a days.