Hey FrGamble!

Quote: FrGamble

So in your analogy the all-powerful God and creator of the universe outside of time and space is "exactly" like the cotton mill owner?

Pretty much. They both step down
from their lofty perch to slum
it with the downtrodden. Knowing
full well they're real existence
as the rich boss is waiting at home.

No sacrifice for either one. I know
this insults the way you think about
god, because you've got him all
built up in your mind to be above
all this. But why should he be, if
he's god he's everything to everybody.
And there's no way coming here as
a man would be a big deal to him.
It comes with the job description.

Quote: Evenbob

I know
this insults the way you think about
god, because you've got him all
built up in your mind to be above
all this. But why should he be, if
he's god he's everything to everybody.
And there's no way coming here as
a man would be a big deal to him.
It comes with the job description.

It insults my intelligence to think of the Allmighty God and His incarnation compared to a boss changing clothes for a week. I would think you would be embarrassed to make such an analogy. However, I think I might know the problem. You have been so trained to see God as Jesus that you think it is in God's job description to sacrifice and become one of us. You don't seem to be grasped the extraordinary nature of what it means to say God became man. You compare it to changing clothes. It is changing everything. It is a spiritual reality outside time and space taking on the limits of the human condition out of love to save us. In the Christian understanding it is a BIG deal, the biggest of deals. I know that will just get you excited about your next insult or snide remark to make, but seriously try to think of this objectively without the context that Christianity for so many years has successfully taught us that God is love and it just makes sense for Him to do anything to save us. God doesn't have to do anything, that He became man to die for us and offer us salvation is beyond words.

Quote: aceofspades

Are you admitting some things are even difficult for God to do?


Padre - I enjoy these debates but you are grasping at straws with each new twist and turn you have to make to support your arguments

I for the most part enjoy these debates when I feel like we are listening to each other and respectful.

Anyway to answer your question, yes some things are difficult even for God to do. For an all-powerful God to become fully human is something amazing. To be without limits and willingly limit yourself, to be eternal and to exist in time, to not know pain and suffering and to experience all of these things. This isn't just like taking on some new clothes, this is a forever reality for God the Son.

Be the way the other thing that I think is difficult for God is our salvation. The freedom He gave us to we could freely and truly love means also that we have the freedom to hate and mock Him no matter how much love He shows to us. We have the freedom to ignore Him and not care. He will never force Himself on anyone. I can only imagine the God who created us, loves us, becomes one of us, dies for us, opens Heaven for us and then is ridiculed is not easy.

Quote: FrGamble

It insults my intelligence to think of the Allmighty God and His incarnation compared to a boss changing clothes for a week. I would think you would be embarrassed to make such an analogy. However, I think I might know the problem. You have been so trained to see God as Jesus that you think it is in God's job description to sacrifice and become one of us. You don't seem to be grasped the extraordinary nature of what it means to say God became man. You compare it to changing clothes. It is changing everything. It is a spiritual reality outside time and space taking on the limits of the human condition out of love to save us. In the Christian understanding it is a BIG deal, the biggest of deals. I know that will just get you excited about your next insult or snide remark to make, but seriously try to think of this objectively without the context that Christianity for so many years has successfully taught us that God is love and it just makes sense for Him to do anything to save us. God doesn't have to do anything, that He became man to die for us and offer us salvation is beyond words.

Can you at least see how much this makes no sense to a modern person that hasn't had religious exposure?

Let your god appear for a day now, record it on HD 5G, and everyone on this planet will bow forever and ever. As it is, million and millions die without ever believing. That is a cruel master you have chosen.

Quote: FrGamble

Anyway to answer your question, yes some things are difficult even for God to do. For an all-powerful God to become fully human is something amazing. To be without limits and willingly limit yourself, to be eternal and to exist in time, to not know pain and suffering and to experience all of these things. .

But, but, these are just your opinions
of what your concept of god should
be like. It's how you or your Church
wants him to be. You aren't an expert
on god, nobody is.

Maybe he's exactly like my example
of the factory owner. If he existed
he might be a hands-on god who
experiences everything. Why not,
what would stop him. In one of the
East religions god wears a red outfit
on his left side, for happiness. And
a black outfit on his right side for
sorcery. When he walks down the
road the field workers on both
sides of the road see the same god,
but have totally different impressions
of him.

Buddhists don't believe in a personal
god or a creator god and they don't
worship any god. Yet they have one
of the most spiritual religions on
Earth. How do you figure that one
out. In fact I read that many Catholic
priests who want to move on from
the Church choose zen Buddhism as
the path. I totally get that, it's the
next logical step.

Quote: FrGamble

In the Christian understanding it is a BIG deal, the biggest of deals. .

Within the parameters of your
religion, yes. Outside of that,
not so much. To me on the
outside, it's no big deal at all.
But to you it's a huge deal.
This is because you were taught
it was a big deal, and I was
taught nothing about it. So
to me it's just a fanciful event.

All religions are 'big deals' to
the people who practice them.
The big difference between
them is religions like Islam
and Xtianity want everybody
to see their religions as a
big deal. And religions like
Hinduism and Buddhism could
care less what outsiders think.

And from my experience the
latter two are far more spiritual
and friendly than the first two.
They seem like happier people.
I watch a lot of travel videos
where these guys visit countries
all over the world about what
life is like in those places.

In India where Hinduism is
practiced, Thailand and Cambodia
and Sri Lanka have Buddhism,
as well as Nepal. In those countries
most people live in a poverty
we can't even comprehend. Yet
they are invariably friendly and
happy and smiling people.

Go to the poverty areas of E
Europe and the people are
gloomy and unfriendly and
unsmiling. With their huge
gothic Xtian churches lurking
in the background. That's because
the religions of these countries
teach different outlooks and
you can the result in how the
people interact with each other.

Quote: Evenbob

But, but, these are just your opinions
of what your concept of god should
be like. It's how you or your Church
wants him to be. You aren't an expert
on god, nobody is.

Quote: Evenbob

Within the parameters of your
religion, yes. Outside of that,
not so much. To me on the
outside, it's no big deal at all.

Evenbob I am grateful to you for saying this. I am not an expert on God. However, I know and love my Catholic faith and what it teaches me about God. I think my main objections to your posts is that you seem to be claiming that I am wrong about what Catholics or in general Christians believe. You don't often couch your statements as representing your beliefs but you make claims that Christians believe this or that. You go so far as to say Christians don't understand things as central to our faith as Christ's sacrifice. What you mean of course is that you don't understand it. Then you go further to make statements about what Christians really believe and in these you are incorrect, yet it doesn't seem to stop you. I am fine with you saying what you don't understand about Christianity, what you don't like about Christianity, etc. However, when you claim to be an expert on Christianity and Catholicism and lecture me about what I really believe it is very frustrating. Please take all that I say as not what you have to believe or how everyone should think of religion and God. I am trying to present the truths as Christians believe them. Disagree, that is fine. Just don't say that this is not what Christians believe. I think if we stay in our lanes we will far fewer crashes that are not good for either of us or the forum in general.

Quote: FrGamble

I am not an expert on God. However, I know and love my Catholic faith and what it teaches me about God.

\

And there you go. Everybody loves
their faith, no matter how wacky
it is. They're comfortable with it,
grew up with it, they get reassurance
from it. Look at how many believe
it, even the wacky faiths. It must be
true, I can relax.

I notice you totally ignored my comments
on how the poor in the Hindu and
Buddhist countries are happy and smiling
and living in a state of poverty we can't
comprehend. And the good Xtian
E. Europeans, with their gothic Catholic
cathedrals looming in the background,
also living in poverty. are grim and unsmiling
and unfriendly. That's because the of the
difference in the religions. The Buddhists
and Hindu's have beliefs centered around
life that are positive and upbeat. Xtians
basically worship death. Jesus hanging on
his cross, just hang in there, life will get
better after you die. The Xtian message
is centered on the after life, which is
depressing and unproductive. So poor
people feel 'stuck' here till they die and
they resent the heck out of it and it
shows on their faces and attitude.

I'm afraid what you might be noticing in the different attitudes of the poor is more based on the despicable idea of the caste system. The poor are poor because in a past life they sinned and are now paying the price in this reincarnation. It is a sick idea to tell people their only hope is to be happy and obedient poor people so that in their next life they can be more successful. Christianity in the strongest terms rejects this idea. We believe that every person has the dignity of the human person. We are called to love, help, and serve those in need. They are no worse or a lesser class than us. Those in material poverty have a right to be upset, there is injustice and social sins that contribute to there sorrows. Together with them we should fight for social justice.

Quote: FrGamble

I'm afraid what you might be noticing in the different attitudes of the poor is more based on the despicable idea of the caste system. The poor are poor because in a past life they sinned and are now paying the price in this reincarnation. It is a sick idea to tell people their only hope is to be happy and obedient poor people so that in their next life they can be more successful. Christianity in the strongest terms rejects this idea. We believe that every person has the dignity of the human person. We are called to love, help, and serve those in need. They are no worse or a lesser class than us. Those in material poverty have a right to be upset, there is injustice and social sins that contribute to there sorrows. Together with them we should fight for social justice.

How about auctioning off all the Vatican's art, archives, gold, etc. and using it to help the poor?