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Hey FrGamble!
| April 28th, 2020 at 3:28:34 PM permalink | |
| aceofspades Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 83 Posts: 2019 |
Amen |
| April 28th, 2020 at 4:11:49 PM permalink | |
| FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
Well then nobody can sacrifice who believes we will live forever, do you really want to say that? “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
| April 28th, 2020 at 4:12:51 PM permalink | |
| petroglyph Member since: Aug 3, 2014 Threads: 25 Posts: 6227 | They usually get back in the huddle. The last official act of any government is to loot the treasury. GW |
| April 28th, 2020 at 4:17:14 PM permalink | |
| FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
Bob, it is really simple stuff. You don't believe Jesus is fully God and fully man. You don't believe dying is a sacrifice. You don't even believe there is such thing as sin. Did you really think you would understand this? You have so steeled yourself against any idea that God loves you and would be willing to sacrifice that anything I say you will reject. When you come close to understanding you back away because you are scared to understand it and see what Christians are saying. It is so basic. You have never answered the question about a faithful soldier who believes in Heaven dying for his brothers and if it is a sacrifice. You are scared and struggling so hard to reject the simple premise that God loves you so much He became man and died for your sins. That is really all that needs be said. I get that you desperately don't want to get it and you run away as fast as you can from anything that would make you realize that you are wrong. Just be assured that what you believe is not what Christians believe. So go ahead and continue to hold your own beliefs but please don't try to foist these strange thoughts upon Christianity. “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
| April 28th, 2020 at 4:56:35 PM permalink | |
| Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 148 Posts: 25978 |
I don't believe Jesus sacrificed a thing, even if he was really god/man. He couldn't.
I'm an atheist, there is no god to sin against.
I did in 1970. I came to realize there's nothing to understand. It's a trick, it's a riddle meant not to be solved on purpose.
If he died and stayed dead, that's a sacrifice. If he wakes up and walks around 36 hours later, it was an attempted sacrifice. Jesus didn't even do that, he knew the fix was in.
You wish. I'm the polar opposite. I'm sure and confident it's the biggest con job ever pulled on mankind.
You have yet to produce anything for me to get away from. You have the same argument all Xtian leaders have when pressed. Just take our word for it they say, there was a sacrifice. Google it, nobody can explain what the sacrifice was and make it sound like a real sacrifice. Giving something up forever. A mom gives up her youth and her career forever when she chooses to be a stay at home mom. A soldier on the grenade gives up his life forever. A doctor gives up a lucrative career in the West and spends his life working for nothing with kids in Africa. They are all sacrificing, giving up something forever. Tell me, you say it's simple. What did Jesus and god or Jesus/god give up forever that was the sacrifice. If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |
| April 28th, 2020 at 5:53:39 PM permalink | |
| aceofspades Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 83 Posts: 2019 |
Yes, actually, I do want to say that. If you believe that, when you die, you will be welcomed into the kingdom of heaven, then there can be no fear of dying and, thus, no sacrifice because you are actually going to a better place than you exist in now |
| April 28th, 2020 at 5:59:03 PM permalink | |
| FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
See that is what you believe. It is not at all what Christians believe. We believe God loves us so much that He sacrifices His very life for us. I'm sorry you don't believe that this is possible, I really am.
So based on your circular logic. Sin is an offense against God. There is no God. Therefore there is no sin.
It's historical truth. There is no riddle.
But the soldier believed he would live again that he would not stay dead. Does that nullify his sacrifice? What if by some miracle he survived, then by charging up the hill to save his brothers would not have been a sacrifice? Think about what you are saying.
You have faith.
God died for you. Again I'm sorry based on your conception of God, who you don't even believe in, that you can't accept that. You are trying to translate your lack of belief into the absence of something. Again there has to be something else going on inside of you that makes you so upset about this. Maybe the news is too good? Maybe you don't believe God could actually do that, that God loves us that much, that you are worth dying for? I don't know what it is but you have a strong belief that God cannot sacrifice anything no matter how much He loves you. I get that. Please don't keep pretending that because you don't understand or believe it that means it isn't true.
She does this out of love for her children. God leaves Heaven and becomes a man to save us from our sins. That is forever. God takes on humanity and He doesn't shed it after the Resurrection. Jesus is fully God and fully human in Heaven. It is forever.
Again the soldier believes that he will live forever in Heaven. So he doesn't give up his life forever, is it still a sacrifice?
See again the answer to the beautiful example you gave about a mother sacrificing for her kids.
Read again the accounts of the Resurrection in the Gospels and tell me what is the first thing Jesus shows the disciples in the Upper room? I think you will find your answer. “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
| April 28th, 2020 at 8:16:43 PM permalink | |
| Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 148 Posts: 25978 | You just did what all Christians do when asked about the sacrifice, they tell you to go read scripture. They have no idea how to explain it. I'll try it again. What permanent thing that he couldn't get back did Jesus/god sacrifice on the cross. Dying for 36 hours, coming back to life better than ever and being taken bodily to heaven to hang out with god in glory is hardly a sacrifice. The only way the myth works is Jesus was living in heaven with his father, came willingly to Earth to preach, then willingly gave up his life forever to die for our sins. That's the only sacrifice Jesus could have done. The way the story goes now, nothing like that happened. Not even close. I've actually had Xtians get weepy and say god is beautiful and Jesus is beautiful and the fact that Jesus had to endure one minute of torture on the cross was his sacrifice. To which I say what about the 100K other poor people who died the same death. Most were runaway slaves who just wanted a better life for themselves. You're insulting all of them by implying Jesus was so much better than them, he should never have died the way they did. If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |
| April 28th, 2020 at 8:57:40 PM permalink | |
| Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 148 Posts: 25978 |
It's hardly circular logic. There is no god, so don't go looking for things related to god. It's a waste of time. It's like not believing unicorns exist, then setting out looking the bowls unicorns eat out of. Why would you do that. Nothing circular about it. If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |
| April 28th, 2020 at 9:36:10 PM permalink | |
| FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
The reason I asked you to read the Scriptures is because the first thing Jesus shows His disciples is the scars. I think you and I have a different conception of sacrifice. I consider God becoming man, teaching us to love God and others, sharing in our human life completely, trusting in God the Father and willingly dying on the cross for our salvation is a huge sacrifice. The Resurrection is the great victory. It shows that yes death and sin can't not have the last word and the willingness to die out of love for others is the greatest sacrifice. You know this already, we all do. Being willing to die for others and doing so is the greatest sacrifice. You seem to want to blame the Resurrection and say that it isn't fair that the grave could not contain Jesus and He burst from its hold. I'm sorry but I see the cross as a sacrifice when God died for our sins. I see the Resurrection as the greatest victory. If you think that it nullifies the sacrifice I don't know what to tell you. I don't think that just because in the end you enter Heaven doesn't make it so that you never sacrificed. I'm kind of amazed that you do.
Why do you think that is the only way it works? What is wrong with a happy ending? Why do you think dying forever, which neither of us believe is even possible, is the only way it could have been done?
You are really reminding me how important the incarnation is. The sacrifice begins at the Annunciation not the cross. God sharing in our sufferings. That we are not alone in our sufferings, especially if we like Jesus are innocent. That our suffering and injustice does not have the last word and that God promises the good thief on the cross that, "Today you will be with me in paradise." What do you find insulting about that? Jesus, who was God, nor those runaway slaves should never have died that way. He shares in their suffering He dies for them and gives them hope. I don't know how you gets things so twisted in your mind. “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |