Hey FrGamble!

Quote: FrGamble

I consider God becoming man, teaching us to love God and others, sharing in our human life completely, trusting in God the Father and willingly dying on the cross for our salvation is a huge sacrifice.

Now we're getting somewhere. This is
what ALL Xtions say when pushed hard
enough. If true it would have been
a nice thing to do, but there was no
sacrifice involved. None. God gave
up nothing when he did it. Just because
you want it to be a sacrifice doesn't
mean it was.

Quote:

I see the Resurrection as the greatest victory. If you think that it nullifies the sacrifice I don't know what to tell you.

Of course it nullifies it. It's like
Jesus told his disciples he was
dying on the cross tomorrow
for their sins. Then appeared
36 hours later alive and well
and trying to explain what he
just did. All they will see is he's
not dead, they won't get it either.
They would see he sacrificed
nothing.

Quote:

What is wrong with a happy ending?

Because this isn't a fairy tale. Or is it..
Jesus is the the only one who lives
happily everafter.

Quote:

promises the good thief on the cross that, "Today you will be with me in paradise."

I always thought that was weird
too. He dies on Fri, goes to
heaven, comes back 36 hours
later to reclaim his body. No
sacrifice. You say I don't want
to understand it. There's
nothing to understand that
makes any sense. You have to
completely suspend your
disbelief permanently, ignore
huge gaping holes in the
narrative, and act like all this
stuff really happened. Why
would anybody do that unless
they desperately needed to.

Quote: Evenbob

God gave
up nothing when he did it. Just because
you want it to be a sacrifice doesn't
mean it was.

Remember He came into this world in the womb. So leaving Heaven becoming helpless and dependent on the love of Mary and Joseph, knowing hard work, tiredness, hunger, thirst, all the human emotions, then suffering and dying for all of humanity while trusting in God His Father. Does know of this sound like a sacrifice for God to make? And this taking on humanity is forever, Jesus Christ is true God and true man still today and for eternity.

Quote:

Of course it nullifies it. It's like
Jesus told his disciples he was
dying on the cross tomorrow
for their sins. Then appeared
36 hours later alive and well
and trying to explain what he
just did. All they will see is he's
not dead, they won't get it either.
They would see he sacrificed
nothing.

No they got it. They saw the wounds of the nails and the pierced side. They knew that He had died and was raised from the dead. He conquered death and forgave all sin. He truly died and was truly risen. It is our ultimate hope and victory.

Quote:

Jesus is the the only one who lives
happily everafter.

Oh how wrong you are. While I again appreciate your faith in the Resurrection you have to remember that everything Jesus did was for others. It is all of us who now can have happy endings to our lives.

Quote:

I always thought that was weird
too. He dies on Fri, goes to
heaven, comes back 36 hours
later to reclaim his body. No
sacrifice. You say I don't want
to understand it.

Wait, what are you talking about? I mentioned the Good Thief, do you know about him? I think you might be confused.

You know thinking about EvenBob's and others' objections about Jesus' sacrifice I can't help but wonder where this idea that sacrifice has to be forever came from. It seems strange to me that for sacrifice to be really a sacrifice there has to be total defeat, annihilation, and no coming back. Bob recently used the example of a mother who he says sacrifices her youth and career to raise kids and a doctor who sacrificed a wealthy career to work with kids in Africa. I realized that neither the mother or doctor in these idealized examples would have even realized they had sacrificed according to Bob. When sacrifices are done with great love it makes it hard for those who think sacrifice needs to be an utterly depressing defeat to see that there is sacrifice. For them sacrifice is always sad and if there was a happy ending it ruins the sacrifice for them. As a Christian I see sacrifice as the ultimate form of love. I see Christ dying and rising again and I'm not disappointed and mope around thinking, "Well if He really loved me He would have stayed dead for longer." I rejoice that He's alive and the hope that gives me, but why would I then look back at what He did as not a sacrifice? It's like if you interview this doctor and he says, "I'm the happiest I have ever been in my life." Do you then say well he never really sacrificed anything? The mother with tears of joy streaming down her cheeks as her children graduate and get married and as she picks up the grand kids, are we to think that her joy nullifies her sacrifice?

Quote: FrGamble

Wait, what are you talking about? I mentioned the Good Thief, do you know about him? I think you might be confused.

He tells the thief that TODAY he
will be in heaven with Jesus.
Right? So that means in the
myth Jesus went to heaven
that day and came back 36
hours later to collect his body.

I know, it's a ridiculous story,
but you're stuck with it.

So you don't think the thief went right to Heaven to be with God? Since he didn't stay dead does that mean he couldn't really sacrifice anything?

Quote: FrGamble

As a Christian I see sacrifice as the ultimate form of love. I see Christ dying and rising again and I'm not disappointed and mope around thinking, "Well if He really loved me He would have stayed dead for longer." I rejoice that He's alive

That's because Xtian leaders have
always had the luxury of
intellectualizing the living and
dying (excuse the pun) crap
out of every aspect of the religion.
You tear it apart and build it again
so you can get to the point that
you can live with and rationalize
the story. You do this because
you have no choice. You were
told and taught at a very early
age that it was all true. You got
older and the logical part of
your brain started making excuses
for a story that was preposterous.

We on the outside have no such
constraints. We can see the story
for exactly what it is. A story,
a myth, take it as seriously as any
other myth. You don't care if
we believe your version or not. Your
real goal is to constantly bolster
your position so you can continue
believing your own version of the
story.

Now you'll say, oh Bob, you couldn't
be more wrong. Which will totally
make my point.

I think I was as clueless as you until my 2nd year in college. None of it made any sense to me other than love one another. Of course if I was honest with myself I never really tried to care about it or learn it. I skipped most of my religious ed classes and even refused to be Confirmed. I was not really an atheist, too much common sense for that, but I was the worst kind of agnostic. I was agnostic not because I didn't think the human mind had to capacity to know God I just didn't care. I was very much an outsider. Maybe more of an outsider than you because I experienced Church stuff and didn't want any part of it. I had no interest, been there done that. I also when I started to get to know Jesus for the first time was in a Protestant group that was pretty anti-Catholic. It is a neat story for another day.

Anyway, I had a choice and I was not in the situation you describe of having being brought up not to think or question. In fact I came to realize that the hardest questions were the best ones to help me grow in my understanding of my faith. Of course, nothing was as important as my prayer life and getting to know Jesus Christ and His love for me and everyone in a deep and intimate way.

I'm sure at some point I asked the same question you are asking about the sacrifice of Jesus. Wondering if He already knew for certain or had foreknowledge of the Resurrection why even go through it all? First I came to understand that Jesus was fully God and fully man and what that meant. It meant He was showing us how to be in a perfect relationship with God the Father. This is based on trust and faith in God's Will and not some perfect knowledge of God's plan.

Secondly, I came to understand that Jesus Christ suffered as both God and man in a way we cannot imagine. Just the idea of God willing to experience suffering and the human condition is extraordinary. Then Jesus trusting enough to lay down His life and die for you, me, and the whole world. I don't think I ever thought like you do that sacrifice has to be forever. I still think that is a strange idea that is not justified in any of the examples you have listed as I have mentioned in my earlier post. I'd love to hear your thoughts on those examples. Is it a sacrifice for the doctor to give up a life of wealth to serve African children if he has never been happier?

Thirdly, I started to understand that God's justice demands that humanity fulfill the law perfectly, but His mercy desires to forgive us. To fulfill both His justice and mercy He takes our place both in fulfilling the law and paying the price in His humanity for our sins. Therefore we are set free from both the law and the shame it causes us and the punishment for our sins. Praise to you Lord Jesus Christ!

Finally, it is without question in my mind that these things really took place historically. The miracles of Jesus, His Apostles and their changing the world, and none of it would be possible without the reality of the Resurrection. Again I don't think that because Jesus rose from the dead it makes His death not count or not a real death and certainly doesn't mean it wasn't a sacrifice.

[Iq] came to understand that Jesus Christ suffered as both God and man in a way we cannot imagine. Just the idea of God willing to experience suffering and the human condition is extraordinary.

Quote: Evenbob

It's exactly like
the cotton mill owner putting
on work clothes 'suffering'
in his own factory for a week
with the poor workers. Then
patting himself on the back
for it.

So in your analogy the all-powerful God and creator of the universe outside of time and space is "exactly" like the cotton mill owner? Should I go on? Do you see any differences right there? Do you think God becoming man is the same thing as putting on work clothes? Really, I think you should try again.

Quote: FrGamble

So in your analogy the all-powerful God and creator of the universe outside of time and space is "exactly" like the cotton mill owner? Should I go on? Do you see any differences right there? Do you think God becoming man is the same thing as putting on work clothes? Really, I think you should try again.

Are you saying an all-powerful, eternal God cannot just snap his fingers and become man anytime he wishes?

Are you admitting some things are even difficult for God to do?


Padre - I enjoy these debates but you are grasping at straws with each new twist and turn you have to make to support your arguments