Hey FrGamble!

Quote: Evenbob

Around the time of King James maybe. What's the difference, New testament it's meant to be read as a book. That's why Matthew is the first installment, Matthew is considered the earliest written gospel. The books in the New testament were chosen in the fourth century mostly from their popularity. they were the most popular so they must be true. A ridiculous way to judge which were the best books.

Chapters and verses well added before the King James. Also Mark is the earliest Gospel, not Matthew. However, 1Thess. is earlier than that. The New Testament is made up mostly of letters written to specific Churches dealing with specific problems. They are all wonderful but for you argue that the New Testament or the Old is meant to be read straight through or that it was designed to do that just shows again how much you don't know, I'm sorry. Also the books were not chosen in the fourth century. They were already chosen and circulating around the early Christian Church. The Church eventually confirmed the canon of Scripture but make no mistake there was no debate or arguing about which books should be included. Naturally from the 1st century the books that were true were chosen by the whole community.

Bob, Jesus did die. He also rose from the dead. I don't understand why you seem so upset about how long He spent in death. How quickly do you believe it will take after you die to get some new form to live on in? I believe that immediately after death my soul is separated from my body and lives on. I think you can agree that the sacrifice isn't determined by what happens after death but by the heroic decisions made leading up to that choice.

This question of what Jesus knew is really scrambling you up. Now you are extolling Jesus' "super faith" (kind of a neat phrase) and for the first time you are claiming that he had no worries dying on the cross. Are you just so flustered that you can't recall what Jesus' experience was leading up to the cross and on the cross itself?

You are really stuck on the fact that Jesus knew He was divine and that means He had no worries, had everything figured out, couldn't suffer or die. That is your conception of what it means to be God. It is not a bad one, especially to describe God before Jesus Christ. Now imagine God willing to become man and know what it is like to worry, to hunger, to thirst, to sweat blood He was so scared, to not know everything but to perfectly trust and have faith in God the Father, to love even when you are betrayed and abandoned, to suffer and to die. God enters fully into our lives. He is not a stranger to these things any longer. Try to see the type of love that it would take to use your conception of an all-knowing, all-powerful God and this same God becomes a helpless child for us. My friend, we have been talking about the ultimate sacrifice of the Cross by Jesus but know that the unthinkable loving sacrifice of God began in the Incarnation.

Quote: FrGamble

If the soldier who charges the hill is fully aware that he will live forever in Heaven does that mean he never sacrificed?

To me the answer is YES! If by 'fully aware' I can substitute 100% certain. If you KNOW you are going to be living in Heaven with your God after jumping on that bomb, then it would be harder NOT to jump on the bomb than it would be to jump on it!

But I believe no one, not even the Pope, is certain. Always will be questions that the logical part of your brain comes up with that the faith part of your brain just can't answer.

Yes, certainty is a very rare and elusive thing in this world. We would all do well to be humble enough to remember that more often.

Quote: FrGamble

Chapters and verses well added before the King James. Also Mark is the earliest Gospel, not Matthew. However, 1Thess. is earlier than that. The New Testament is made up mostly of letters written to specific Churches dealing with specific problems. They are all wonderful but for you argue that the New Testament or the Old is meant to be read straight through or that it was designed to do that just shows again how much you don't know, I'm sorry. Also the books were not chosen in the fourth century. They were already chosen and circulating around the early Christian Church. The Church eventually confirmed the canon of Scripture but make no mistake there was no debate or arguing about which books should be included. Naturally from the 1st century the books that were true were chosen by the whole community.

Padre - you use the word "chosen" - these were chosen by man, correct? Why were some Gospels rejected by man but others not? Are they not all the word of God? How is man supposed to "divine" which Gospels should be included and which shouldn't - do you presume, once again, to know the mind of God by picking and choosing?

They were chosen by the Church guided by the Holy Spirit. Not all ancient texts written about Jesus are the Word of God. Along with the guidance of the Holy Spirit promised to the Church in the Bible you can also look at content, authenticity, apostolic origin, how old the text is, conformity with other texts, and many other factors. All of these things come into play.

Quote: FrGamble

They were chosen by the Church guided by the Holy Spirit. Not all ancient texts written about Jesus are the Word of God. Along with the guidance of the Holy Spirit promised to the Church in the Bible you can also look at content, authenticity, apostolic origin, how old the text is, conformity with other texts, and many other factors. All of these things come into play.

And who determines that the Holy Spirit guided them?

Quote: aceofspades

And who determines that the Holy Spirit guided them?

Who determines that it is not the Holy Spirit that guided them?

Quote: FrGamble

Who determines that it is not the Holy Spirit that guided them?

I am not making the claim that the Holy Spirit guided them - you are - as such, the burden of proof is on you

Who determines I do not have an undetectable pink dinosaur living in my backyard?

Quote: aceofspades

I am not making the claim that the Holy Spirit guided them - you are - as such, the burden of proof is on you

Who determines I do not have an undetectable pink dinosaur living in my backyard?

Fair enough, using all the criteria I mentioned earlier the Church established by Christ and from whom the various letters and Gospels were written determined that it was the Holy Spirit that guided them to establish the canon of Scripture.