Was Jesus God?

To precis "Courage" it is really a reparation tool that teaches celibacy for gay people. As there own doctrine states:

Quote: Guidelines to Pastoral Care, 2006: Ministry to Persons with a Homosexual Inclination

Consequently, the Catholic Church has consistently taught that homosexual acts “are contrary to the natural law. . . . Under no circumstances can they be approved....

Consequently, the Church does not teach that the experience of homosexual attraction is in itself sinful...

Persons who experience same-sex attraction and yet are living in accord with Church teaching should be encouraged to take an active role in the life of the faith community. However, the Church has a right to deny roles of service to those whose behavior violates her teaching. Such service may seem to condone an immoral lifestyle and may even be an occasion of scandal...

Church policies should explicitly reject unjust discrimination and harassment of any persons, including those with a homosexual inclination. Procedures should be in place to handle complaints...

Similarly, the Church does not support the adoption of children by same-sex couples since homosexual unions are contrary to the divine plan...

The Catholic faith is different than all other Christian faiths in that there is a belief that being virteous is possible.

Quote: FrGamble

Concerning the fish in water statement I do believe it goes both ways.

You should see what I've refrained from posting.

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I would hope that you or others on the forum would be able to clearly show where and how I am not thinking right about certain things and help me gain perspective.

It's very simple, but you're not going to like it:

The "truth" claimed by the church, and Christianity overall, about LGBT is merely the collective 3,000-year old prejudice of a desert tribe, which happened to clash with the practices of the larger civilizations around it (ie Egypt, Persia, Greece and Rome). To keep upholding it now is neither compassionate, nor sensible, and especially not love. It's oppression.

And much the same can be said about the roles of women within the church, abortion, relations with other faiths, the types of parents a child needs, and much, much more.

So is it your contention that the real "truth" is that sexual relationships between two men or two women normal, healthy, and natural? Do you think that a child raised by two men or two women is not missing anything that could be helpful for the child's development? I guess what we should talk about is not if something is just 3,000 years old and labeled a prejudice by you, but rather why have people believed that homosexual sexual relationships are not natural and why we should or should not believe this?

Quote: FrGamble

So is it your contention that the real "truth" is that sexual relationships between two men or two women normal, healthy, and natural?

For certain people, absolutely. This is what you
can't seem to grasp. Not everybody is the same,
you can't cram them all in one lifestyle and call
it natural. Religion offers no wiggle room, it's
their way or the highway.

It used to be if you were left handed, the Church
linked you to evil and Satanism. What happened
to that loving myth. It wasn't 'natural' to be left
handed, so you were persecuted and forced to
favor the right hand. Homosexual sex for some
is completely natural, they have no interest in
any other kind. For you to say otherwise is just
as wrong and bigoted as the way you used to
vilify left handers.

Quote: FrGamble

Maybe the person has a love for children, then I would suggest teaching Religious Education or helping out with youth group. Finally and very importantly I would tell the person about a very helpful apostolate of the Catholic Church called Courage.

So no advice on finding a person to share one's life with? No advice on adopting children?

Why am I not surprised?

And you dare say this is not discrimination? This does not exclude LGBT people from everyday activities? Are you not telling LGBT people sex and child-rearing are too good for them? And how is this not contempt or condescension?

Celibacy is what's unnatural. I differentiate this from asexuality. In the latter sexual desire and arousal are either low or absent. Whether this underlies some hormonal problem, I've no idea. I know you won't get an asexual person interested in having sex no matter how hard you try.

Celibacy means refraining from having sex, even when the desire is there. I'm very well aware the Catholic priesthood demands it. That's you affair (I'm also 99.999999999999% certain the actual rate of actual celibacy among the clergy is close to 0.00000000000001%, if that, if masturbation counts as sex, and pretty close to it if it doesn't.). But even then, anyone can resume sexual activity at any time by giving up the office. This courtesy is not afforded to LGBT people, but then they're not given a choice, either.

Again, this is all based on a prejudice thousands of years old. Suggesting it is not love. Enforcing it emotionally under threats of sin and hell is not love. Accepting a whole group of people as second class citizens is not love or inclusion. You wouldn't even dare suggest it about people of other races, or lower IQ, or physical disabilities, or mental disabilities even.

But, as I too often say, it's a feature and not a bug. Happiness in this world is of no consequence to you, compared to imaginary "salvation" in a non-existent next world.

Quote: FrGamble

So is it your contention that the real "truth" is that sexual relationships between two men or two women normal, healthy, and natural?

And enjoyable, and satisfying. And it helps cement the bonds of love between them as well.

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Do you think that a child raised by two men or two women is not missing anything that could be helpful for the child's development?

In 1991 there was a total solar eclipse visible in Mexico City in the middle of the rainy season. Though the skies are cloudy most days, on this day they were only partially obscured by dark clouds. The rain even provided a bonus, because every puddle on the street reflected the spectacle of the Moon's slow crawl over the face of the Sun. Normally a puddle only reflects glare, but as the sunlight dims as the eclipse progresses, the reflection as a perfect mirror image of the celestial show.

Some stars were visible in the breaks between the clouds. If you knew where to look, you could spot several planets. Seeing a planet is common on the night sky, and even Venus can be made out in the daytime, right before sunset, at certain times. Spotting Mercury, however, is rather difficult and rare, and it's possible only near dawn and sunset. At totality on that day, it wasn't only visible, but high in the sky, very close to the Sun.

The Sun showed its corona, its upper atmosphere, which is an incredible sight and visible only during a total eclipse. At other times it's obscured by normal sunlight. Temperatures dropped noticeably, adding a chill tot he excitement of the day's spectacle.

On that day, I was out on the street right outside work, watching.

On that day, my father hid in his office, because he was afraid of being blinded. I explained how one could safely view an eclipse, but he persisted in his refusal.

On that day, my mother was making sure my sister-in-law would not go out at all, lest her pregnancy come to grief because of the eclipse.

Do you think I might have missed something and had a twisted development due to having parents who bought into such ridiculous nonsense? I'm sure I did.

I'm sure every person who was raised by cisgender heterosexual parents can come up with something like this, too.

Quote: Nareed

So no advice on finding a person to share one's life with?

I think I mentioned numerous times the need for community and to make friends.

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And you dare say this is not discrimination? This does not exclude LGBT people from everyday activities? Are you not telling LGBT people sex and child-rearing are too good for them? And how is this not contempt or condescension?

You need to tone this down. It is not contempt or condescension to say that the way we are made as human beings clearly shows that men are not meant to have sex with other men and that this union will not produce children. I think at times your anger is misdirected. The circumstances of those who are homosexual does bear with it serious difficulties and challenges. Some of those challenges come from sinful and ignorant people but other difficulties come from the nature of who they are, I understand that. I join you in condemning anyone who treats you unfairly or discriminates against anyone because of their gender or sexual orientation. What I cannot join you in is condemning nature for making you or I a certain way. There are many things that I cannot do that I wish I could and that others can. It serves no one to rail against reality. Homosexuals can do many things, marrying and having genital sex is not one of them. It is not that these things are too good for them or anything like that. Men can't get pregnant but pregnancy is not too good for them.

Quote: Evenbob

Homosexual sex for some
is completely natural, they have no interest in
any other kind. For you to say otherwise is just
as wrong and bigoted as the way you used to
vilify left handers.

It is perfectly natural to be left-handed. The body functions perfectly either way and we are made to be either right handed or left handed. However, I think you can clearly see that the way the body was not designed for men to have sex with other men. The attraction to the same sex may very well feel completely natural to those with a homosexual inclination, but that alone does not make it completely natural. Is it wrong a bigoted to say that a man cannot get pregnant?

Quote: FrGamble

I think I mentioned numerous times the need for community and to make friends.

Is that why Catholics marry?

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I join you in condemning anyone who treats you unfairly or discriminates against anyone because of their gender or sexual orientation.

Will you condemn yourself? Will you condemn the Pope?

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Homosexuals can do many things, marrying and having genital sex is not one of them

That is patently a lie.

Quote: Nareed

That is patently a lie.

You are correct and it was a stupid statement I made and not true.

I can't condemn myself or the Pope until you can tell me why I am being more unfair or more discriminatory than nature and its laws?