Is Satan Real

Quote: FrGamble

Religion is not unproven hearsay.

Unproven? More like made up.

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There are billions upon billions of people, myself as one of them that have come to experience the real and loving presence of Jesus Christ in our lives.

You know, some people often feel the presence of ghosts. It turns out, at least in some cases, this is the result of a neurological malfunction which partly disconnects their own actions from the effects of such actions.

I'm willing to bet everything I own, plus whatever I can borrow or steal, that some widespread neurological quirk will prove to be the cause of all religious feelings. Do you want a piece of this action?

I'll forestall one objection with an example: everyone reacts very similarly to optical illusions, which are just a way of activating widespread neurological quirks in humans.

Oh, there are about 7.5 billion people in the whole world. I think perhaps 2-3 billions are Christians. I wouldn't call that "billions upon billions." But then Christian apologists like to exaggerate, as in how they claim they invented morality, marriage and came up with the Big Bang theory (oh, wait, the last one is true).

Quote: Nareed

I'm willing to bet everything I own, plus whatever I can borrow or steal, that some widespread neurological quirk will prove to be the cause of all religious feelings. Do you want a piece of this action?

Unless that neurological quirk you speak of is the gift of reason you will lose everything. Yes, I would gladly take that action any day and twice on Sunday.

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Oh, there are about 7.5 billion people in the whole world. I think perhaps 2-3 billions are Christians. I wouldn't call that "billions upon billions." But then Christian apologists like to exaggerate, as in how they claim they invented morality, marriage and came up with the Big Bang theory (oh, wait, the last one is true).

Billions of people over the history of humanity not just currently, still billions upon billions taken literally is an exaggeration.

It's funny you would like to think the Big Bang Theory was an exaggeration from Christian apologists and not one of the greatest discoveries of modern cosmology.

Quote: FrGamble

Unless that neurological quirk you speak of is the gift of reason you will lose everything. Yes, I would gladly take that action any day and twice on Sunday.

You're on. Would you like to hire an accountant to determine my net worth, or would you take my word for it? :)

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It's funny you would like to think the Big Bang Theory was an exaggeration from Christian apologists and not one of the greatest discoveries of modern cosmology.

So the invention of morality and marriage was an exaggeration?

I know full well Fr. Lemaitre came up with the BBT. But that was a theoretical physics development, not a Christian one. Or would you claim he came up with after reading the Bible and talking to Jesus, without as much as looking at any data?

How many people believe that Vikings wore horned helmets? Even the NFL perpetuates this myth.
How many people believe Columbus discovered America? Every history text perpetuates this myth.
How many people believe Twinkies have an infinite shelf life?
How many people think the Leafs will win the Cup?

People are stupid. Groups of people, even stupider. I'm not sure this is a good argument. Not at all.

Quote: Face

How many people believe Twinkies have an infinite shelf life?

Completely inorganic things have long shelf lives, but not infinite ones.

Quote: Face

People are stupid. Groups of people, even stupider. .

Not only that, they are ignorant and lazy.
They are followers. Somebody figures a
good take on religion, and legions of
people sign on because it's easy peasy.
No thinking involved, just do as your
told, believe what we tell you, and you're
golden.

I'm telling you, grab your average Christian
and try and have a discussion with him about
his religion. He will be bored spitless in 30
seconds, for him there is nothing to talk about.
That's the reason he BECAME a Christian, so
he won't have to think about it.

Quote: Nareed

that some widespread neurological quirk will prove to be the cause of all religious feelings.

It's not even that complicated. People want
to believe their special, that god and Jesus
care about them, them personally. They want
to believe prayers are answered, that Jesus
died to save them. Listen to any sermon
and hear how many times the word 'you'
is mentioned. It's all about you. Your ego
gets bathed in it. Cults call it 'love bombing'.
Make it all about the converts and members,
make it all about them personally. Xtions
invented it and perfected it, the religion of
'me'.

Quote: FrGamble

God invented the universe, there was no time before God.

In the myth.

In reality, some early Hebrews invented Jehovah, who morphed in time and eventually was appropriated by the followers of Jesus to undo the innate modesty of their dead leader (very likely in imitation of the Roman practice of deifying dead emperors).

Why is this so hard to believe? Many people invented other gods, Ra, Anubis, Baal, Heracles, Zeus, Athena (my favorite), Ares, Jupiter, Minerva, Mars, Odin, Tlaloc, Thor, Huixlipoxtli, and many, many more. Most of which, BTW, seem more plausible and are more realistic in character than the Jewish god. Am I supposed to believe all other gods are made up or imaginary, but one by a small, largely inconsequential tribe in Canaan is actually real?

Or am I supposed to believe your claim they are all Jehovah, revealed a little at a time? If so, it's funny Jehovah-in-progress required human sacrifices in many, many lands, including children as Jehovah-posing-as-Baal. Not to mention Jehovah-as-all-Mesoamerican-gods right until the early XVI Century CE. Perhaps I don't dislike the mythical god enough to believe this.

Quote: Face

People are stupid. Groups of people, even stupider. I'm not sure this is a good argument. Not at all.

If the argument was only about do people believe Jesus had a beard and long hair or that He was born on Dec. 25th I can see your point. However we are talking about billions of people who not just think they know something about Jesus, but that they know Jesus. You can fool people into thinking certain things, but how do you fool people into feeling certain things. All around the world and throughout history people of every different race, culture, language, and backgrounds all speak of the same personal experience of Jesus Christ. This is what should stagger you and cause you to think there might be a little bit more to this Jesus than some ancient myth. Besides of course the fact that He was a historical figure who has impacted the world in a way that is almost unimaginable if it wasn't so real.

Quote: FrGamble

You can fool people into thinking certain things, but how do you fool people into feeling certain things.

Have you ever seen a TV commercial? In particular a campaign commercial?