Is Satan Real

Whoa, that would be quite an "Undercover Boss" episode: This season watch as the only begotten son of the main boss of the world leaves their heavenly mansion and is born to a poor family in Nazareth. His life will be forever changed, and so will yours, as you watch him grow up. Then listen to his preaching as he goes around preaching a radical message of love and forgiveness. Finally, see the stunning and surprising conclusion and just when you thought it was over wait three days for beginning of our next season! Never before has Undercover Boss gone this far, from cradle to grave, for an entire life not just a few days, the only son of the boss of the world will be one of us - this is the greatest story ever told.

I don't know I think the ratings could be off the charts.

Quote: Evenbob

Rome crucified a few hundred thousand people,
none of them had the advantage of knowing they
were god. The bosses son. What about them, what
about their suffering? The suffering of an all knowing
god pales in comparison.

Can you explain to me how the suffering of Christ is diminished because He is God? You keep saying that He knew everything was going to be okay, there is an important theological discussion about this point that we probably shouldn't try to get into, but for the sake of argument let's say you are correct. How does this knowledge protect you from experiencing the same suffering of those others on the cross. Those dying on the cross by the way all know that eventually their suffering will end too.

What the other people on the cross did not have to deal with is the knowledge that they were completely innocent and did not deserve to die, that at any moment he could stop the pain and suffering but did not, and that even though God was suffering and dying on the cross there would be many who would mock Him from that moment till today. All this mental anguish that no one who has ever suffered had to deal with. Does this not heighten the sacrifice not lessen it?

Also I still wonder if you have an answer to the more philosophical question as to if a sacrifice is lessened if the one who gives has lots to give? If you receive a million dollars from a billionaire is that gift to you lessened because he could have given more? Do you have a legitimate complaint against him?

Quote: FrGamble

What the other people on the cross did not have to deal with is the knowledge that they were completely innocent and did not deserve to die,

When does an innocent person not know they're innocent?

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that at any moment he could stop the pain and suffering but did not,

That's the sticking point. God chose to do this though he could have stopped it, avoided it, turned the tables, and so on. It's pantomime, even if it hurts like hell. It's like "pro wrestling: the hits are real, but the rest is fake.

You might be impressed by a billionaire who, say, drives a modest compact car rather than a gold-plated Rolls Royce with all-platinum suspension and diamond-encrusted headlights. But not if he does it for show.

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and that even though God was suffering and dying on the cross there would be many who would mock Him from that moment till today. All this mental anguish that no one who has ever suffered had to deal with.

Omnipotent being. What mental anguish? You want mental anguish, consider just about everyone else in the universe.

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Also I still wonder if you have an answer to the more philosophical question as to if a sacrifice is lessened if the one who gives has lots to give? If you receive a million dollars from a billionaire is that gift to you lessened because he could have given more? Do you have a legitimate complaint against him?

Do you recall something about a widow and two copper coins?

I disagree with that fable, but it would seem to be important to your side.

Quote: FrGamble

Can you explain to me how the suffering of Christ is diminished because He is God?

Can you explain how his actual suffering was any
different than the couple hundred thousand who died
the same way? And they didn't have the huge advantage
of knowing the good outcome of their suffering, which
Jesus knew full well.

He said to the thief who was crucified next to him:

"Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise"

Doesn't this sound like somebody who was upbeat about
the plan? He knew what awaited him, he was gods son,
fer crying out loud. Or so the myth says..

Quote: FrGamble

All this mental anguish that no one who has ever suffered had to deal with. Does this not heighten the sacrifice not lessen it?

I keep forgetting that god, creator of the universe,
who knows all, is all, who is eternal, master of billions
of galaxies where undoubtedly other life, other beings
live, which are his subjects too, that this all powerful
god sits up nights anguishing over what a few humans
think of him. I'm sorry, but that describes Woody Allan
worrying about his fan base more than it does a god.

Edited later: It seems Catholics have a real problem
with what Jesus said to the thief. He never mentioned
Purgatory (because the concept didn't exist yet) so
they've altered the emphasis of the words he used to
imply a Purgatory. Amazing what you can do when you
have hundreds of years to work with.

Quote: Nareed

That's the sticking point. God chose to do this though he could have stopped it, avoided it, turned the tables, and so on. It's pantomime, even if it hurts like hell. It's like "pro wrestling: the hits are real, but the rest is fake.

You might be impressed by a billionaire who, say, drives a modest compact car rather than a gold-plated Rolls Royce with all-platinum suspension and diamond-encrusted headlights. But not if he does it for show.

God could have stopped it, turned the tables, etc. but that would have been a selfish act and we would still not be redeemed. Only selfless sacrifice saves us, as it always has been and always will be. The Paschal Mystery is the reverse of the Fall. Adam and Eve were in paradise, they were selfish and sinned, lost their loving and trustful relationship with God, and it hurt like hell. With Christ He was innocent of all sin and selfless, he had a loving and trustful relationship with God, He went through hell, and opened again the way to paradise.

Nothing about this is for show, but it is all to serve and help us.

Quote: Evenbob

Can you explain how his actual suffering was any
different than the couple hundred thousand who died
the same way?

Let's see He was God, completely innocent, abandoned by His friends, betrayed by an Apostle, turned on by His own people, beaten, scourged, mocked, spit upon, crown of thorns. He also was doing all this to save the world from sin and death, yet He knew that even so some would turn away form Him, that people would continue to grievously sin. He would have done all this for any one of us and yet for all of humanity, previously died or yet to be born, He bore the sins of us all as a spiritual weight far more crushing than all the physical crosses the Romans had ever laid on criminals all put together.

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And they didn't have the huge advantage
of knowing the good outcome of their suffering, which
Jesus knew full well.

As I mentioned before the outcome of which you speak Jesus knew was not perfect. That for some people His suffering and death for them would be in vain. Everyone on the cross knew that there suffering would soon end. Jesus alone knew that His suffering, even after the Resurrection, would never end for those whom He loves and yet reject Him.

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He said to the thief who was crucified next to him:

"Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise"

Doesn't this sound like somebody who was upbeat about
the plan? He knew what awaited him, he was gods son,
fer crying out loud.

Speaking of crying out loud please take a look at what else Jesus said on the cross. As I've recommended to you already, you are in desperate need of a re-read of the Gospels. I don't think a merciful promise of paradise to a repentant thief between labored breaths as blood gushed from His body is really considered upbeat?!?

Quote: FrGamble

Let's see He was God, completely innocent, abandoned by His friends, betrayed by an Apostle, turned on by His own people, beaten, scourged, mocked

And you think no other innocents were ever
crucified, and abandoned by their family
and betrayed by a friend and beaten and
wosre, before the sentence was carried out?
I'm sure you know the vast number of those
crucified were being punished for being
runaway slaves. It's the way the Romans made
an example out of them. Talk about being
innocent of a crime..

Quote: FrGamble

I don't think a merciful promise of paradise to a repentant thief between labored breaths as blood gushed from His body is really considered upbeat?!?

I think it's pretty darned upbeat and noble
for somebody who's about dead. Don't give
up hope, things will turn out OK, I promise.
I don't think you should denigrate it.

Quote: FrGamble

God could have stopped it, turned the tables, etc. but that would have been a selfish act

A moral act.

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and we would still not be redeemed.

We don't need to be.

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Nothing about this is for show, but it is all to serve and help us.

No? The point was to impress humanity (which makes the choice of the venue all the more puzzling). I grant you it was completely selfless, which only makes it worse. God's purpose is entirely centered on others, allegedly to "help" them. But it seems more like an attempt to make an impression.

Not that it matters. After all, Jesus was a man like billions of others. He wasn't a god, because there are no gods. He couldn't had redeemed humanity because 1) humanity doe snot need to be redeemed, and 2) Jesus wasn't a god. He did not rise from the dead because no one is able to do that.

At some point it gets tiresome to take the myth seriously.

Quote: Nareed

Not that it matters. After all, Jesus was a man like billions of others. He wasn't a god, because there are no gods. He couldn't had redeemed humanity because 1) humanity doe snot need to be redeemed, and 2) Jesus wasn't a god. He did not rise from the dead because no one is able to do that.

At some point it gets tiresome to take the myth seriously.

I don't know which of your points is most oblivious, the fact that humanity needs help and longs for salvation or that Jesus was clearly God and has risen from the dead.

It is more like a mystery that you can't understand and therefore try to not take seriously. Imagine where science would be if they took your attitude to mystery.

Quote: FrGamble

I don't know which of your points is most oblivious, the fact that humanity needs help and longs for salvation or that Jesus was clearly God and has risen from the dead.

Those who long for salvation after this life will be disappointed.

Jesus is clearly God, in the myth. Aphrodite is clearly the Goddess of Love and Beauty, in many myths. Clark Kent is clearly Superman, in the myth. Telepathy is clearly real, in the Babylon 5 myth. Klingons clearly exist, in the Star Trek myth.

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It is more like a mystery that you can't understand and therefore try to not take seriously.

I understand it. That's why I don't take it seriously.

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Imagine where science would be if they took your attitude to mystery.

Had the world at large possessed my attitude to science in Classical times, we'd all be teleporting to jobs in parallel universes ;) (Thank you, Mike Duncan!)