Is Satan Real

Quote: Nareed

That depends: are you privy to more information than the whole of the cosmological and astrophysical communities have access to?

Your spitting into the wind my friend.

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Ergo the deification of Jesus, plus the need for a holy trinity to make it fit with notions in the Old Testament.

The Resurrection was the proof or confirmation of Jesus' claims to be God. The New Testament was the key to understanding the mysterious notions in the Old Testament of a Triune God, which is a uniquely Christian concept. The New Testament reveals and explains what was hidden, but present in the Old.

Quote: FrGamble

The Resurrection was the proof or confirmation of Jesus' claims to be God.

The spurious resurrection, the urban myth event
that's so critical to everything. I swear, if you can
convince people this really happened, you can
convince them of anything; a green cheese moon,
Santa and his elves, that Hillary is smart.

Well, maybe not the part about Hillary..

Quote: FrGamble

Your spitting into the wind my friend.

I like that song!

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The Resurrection was the proof or confirmation of Jesus' claims to be God.

You don't use one unproven claim to "prove" another unproven claim. Astrology is self-consistent, as are other religions, numerology, Dianetics, etc. If that were all it took, all supernaturalistic claims would be true.

I haven't read the New Testament (though drawn to ancient history, I've yet to develop a liking for ancient fiction), but it's my understanding that not once did Jesus claim to be a god. I could be mistaken in this, of course.

Quote: Nareed

You don't use one unproven claim to "prove" another unproven claim.

We're back to circular logic again. Jesus
rose from the tomb and hung out for 40
days, it says so in the Bible and the Bible
is true because it says it is. All major religions
rely on this faulty logic. Islam, Mormonism.
If it's in their holy books it has to be true
because it's in their holy books.

And they say this with a deadly straight face.
Humans are so desperate for something to
follow, due to their core spiritual laziness,
they'll believe anything as long as a bunch
of other desperate people believe it first.
Maddening..

Quote: Nareed

You don't use one unproven claim to "prove" another unproven claim.

What possible evidence do you have that would lead you to think that the Resurrection is not true? I offer that a small group of fishermen and poor disciples transformed the world proclaiming a message that Jesus Christ had Risen from the dead. There was never any serious refutation of this claim, no body produced by the authorities, Roman or otherwise. No Apostle or disciple ever recanted but willingly gave their life to spread the Good News that God had freed us from sin and death through Jesus Christ. The empty tomb and the faith of Christians everywhere is proof that Jesus has indeed risen and lives in glory today. The only claim that has no proof is that there was no Resurrection.

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I haven't read the New Testament (though drawn to ancient history, I've yet to develop a liking for ancient fiction), but it's my understanding that not once did Jesus claim to be a god. I could be mistaken in this, of course.

I'm really sad you as a historian feel that way, it reveals a bias that blinds you to one of the most amazing ancient historical documents of the New Testament. If you like ancient history, there is not a more reliable historical account of that period than the writing of the NT. Even if you don't read it as a work of faith, it is an amazing wealth of information about the ancient world at that time.

Anyway, you are mistaken there are numerous times in which Jesus claims to be God.

Quote: FrGamble

What possible evidence do you have that would lead you to think that the Resurrection is not true?.

It's a lack of any real evidence that's the
problem. Hearsay from 2000 years ago,
do you realize what you're asking? Talk
about suspending your disbelief to the
n'th degree. Jesus rose from the dead,
hung out with his buddies for 40 days,
went on a tour of all the places he visited
when he was alive. With no evidence at
all to back this up. This is why I moved
away from the religion when I was young,
this part of it was just too embarrassingly
weird.

You will really get no where calling verified history hearsay. Do you say that because you disagree with what history points to and can't handle it? I wish I could help you there are a lot of things in history I wish weren't true but I can't escape them by just calling they hearsay. There is an empty tomb and there are Jesus' followers then and today who know He is alive. Again I wish I could help you but all I hear from you is a lack of evidence and the simple idea that you don't want it to be true and therefore it can't be. Talk about being embarrassingly weird.

Quote: FrGamble

What possible evidence do you have that would lead you to think that the Resurrection is not true?

The whole idea is preposterous.

First he's trapped by his brother in a casket and drowned in a river, then he winds up enmeshed in a tree. The tree becomes the beam of a palace, but his wife manages to break him out of there. Ah, but before he can be buried he's chopped into 13 pieces. His faithful wife manages to put 12 of the pieces together, missing only the one that I believe males attach special importance to. The wife makes a prosthesis, then reassembles him. Finally she breathes life back into him and Osiris resurrects.

Come on. Do you really believe that?

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I'm really sad you as a historian feel that way, it reveals a bias that blinds you to one of the most amazing ancient historical documents of the New Testament.

1) I'm not a historian.
2) The New testament is as relevant to my life as Das Kapital, and quite possibly as accurate.
3) Jesus never set down a word on papyrus.
4) A book written decades after the fact by people with an agenda is not a particularly good historical source. I wouldn't trust the Historia Augusta for the same reason.

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Anyway, you are mistaken there are numerous times in which Jesus claims to be God.

Numerous times when the gospel writers claimed decades later that Jesus claimed he was God. I stand corrected.

Curious that God would go to all the trouble of becoming a man, if we take the myth literally, in order to save us from himself, or something like that, and then he doesn't even leave a record behind.

It is consistent. I grant you that much. That does sound like the same deity who's afraid a group of primitives using brick and stone would build a tower that could reach all the way into the sky. Or the omniscient god who needs fallible mortals to mark doors for him.

Quote: Nareed

The whole idea is preposterous.

Why? What is so preposterous as a man rising from the dead? It is nothing to think this is possible if you think that the universe can exist without a cause.

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Numerous times when the gospel writers claimed decades later that Jesus claimed he was God. I stand corrected.

Curious that God would go to all the trouble of becoming a man, if we take the myth literally, in order to save us from himself, or something like that, and then he doesn't even leave a record behind.

Their claim would be nonsense if you could prove the Resurrection didn't happen. If you could point to a body or a tomb that isn't empty. If you could show that the Apostles were not convicted to their marrow, as well as hundreds of other eyewitnesses, that they had not only seen the Lord but talked to Him, ate with Him, and touched Him. If you could show that the falsehood of such a radical claim led to the weakening of this fledgling religion instead of its rampant growth you might have an argument. As it stands you have none and just keep repeating it can't happen, it was made up, yet nothing in history supports your claim.

It is beyond curious, it is an example of the highest love, that God would go to all the trouble of becoming a man. He did this in order save us from ourselves and He left us not only the most extraordinary and historical ancient writings but a living tradition to form a record for all time. That record is not just a book it is a Church and a people and it is me.

Quote: FrGamble

Why? What is so preposterous as a man rising from the dead?

What? well, something like a man arising from death. That's what.

So, do you believe Isis resurrected Osiris?

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It is nothing to think this is possible if you think that the universe can exist without a cause.

Sense not making are you, as that annoying little Jedi would say.

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Their claim would be nonsense if you could prove the Resurrection didn't happen. If you could point to a body or a tomb that isn't empty.

There are a number of well-documented cases of missing bodies and empty tombs. I suppose all these people resurrected?

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As it stands you have none and just keep repeating it can't happen, it was made up, yet nothing in history supports your claim.

There is not one single account of the alleged resurrection by any source other than the followers of Jesus. You'd think after all the scandal this man caused, allegedly, the Israelites of the time, the Romans of the time and the bystanders of the time would have noted something so remarkable as a dead man walking the streets of Judea as if nothing had happened.