Is Satan Real

Quote: FrGamble

Would it impact my happiness, yes. Would it destroy the possibility of my being happy, no.

You know, many forms of injury which reduce the options for happiness are also hideously expensive to have to endure, not only in money but in time and in effort.

I suggest you see Christopher Reeve in the remake of "Rear Window," (I think it was). To begin with it's heartbreaking knowing he's a quadriplegic and not that he's only playing one. But there's an excellent illustration of just how much such injuries take out of their victims.

Can one still be happy? Maybe. But I'd rather not find out by experience.

Quote: Evenbob

I dare not question
anything, like I do here, she'll look at me like
I'm an utter moron. Of course it's all true, why
would I ever doubt it.

Better to be thought of as a moron than to speak and remove all doubt ;-)

Quote: Nareed

You know, many forms of injury which reduce the options for happiness are also hideously expensive to have to endure, not only in money but in time and in effort.

I suggest you see Christopher Reeve in the remake of "Rear Window," (I think it was). To begin with it's heartbreaking knowing he's a quadriplegic and not that he's only playing one. But there's an excellent illustration of just how much such injuries take out of their victims.

Can one still be happy? Maybe. But I'd rather not find out by experience.

Yes truly one can still be happy, but as you said it is not a cross I would want to lift. Speaking of that I do think faith in God is a big help to get us through these heartbreaking events in our lives.

Quote: FrGamble

The difference is Jesus is God who has freely out of love become man. The Incarnation in itself is a sacrifice, then you add the physical sacrifice of dying to save us .

The more you explain this, the more confusing
it gets. A sacrifice must, by it's very nature,
involve giving something up that's dear to
you, forever. God knew Jesus would rise
again, he's all knowing. 'God gave his only
begotten son'. No he didn't. He sent his son
to be used in a morality play, he hardly gave
him up. The mystery is, how could anybody
see it differently than this.

I'm not being purposely obtuse, you give the same
answer all Christians give. A nonsensical one.
So there was no sacrifice involved, so what. I don't
see how it changes the story all that much.

Jesus does not become un-incarnate you know. A all powerful spiritual person takes on humanity for eternity. You seem to think that this was some type of brief morality play. Jesus became human once and for all to save us, teach us, and show us the way to perfect happiness. There is a sense of giving up something and God purposely and freely limiting Himself for our salvation. This is what allows God to truly suffer and die, something that He would never have felt if not for the Incarnation. Not to mention what it feels to be ostracized, mocked, spit upon, abandoned, etc. So I hope now you can see there was lots that God's only begotten Son sacrificed.

Quote: FrGamble

There is a sense of giving up something and God purposely and freely limiting Himself for our salvation. This is what allows God to truly suffer and die, .

Yet he isn't dead (to you), never really died,
knew he would not die, could not die, will
never die. That's the essence of god, his
immortality.

This is very much like talking to someone
who believes Elvis is still alive. They try
and drag you into their conspiracy theory
and you feel very frustrated you can't get
through to them.

Gods never sacrifice, they cannot sacrifice
because they have nothing to give up, and
they know the outcome anyway. Christians
cannot say exactly where the sacrifice was,
but since they all agree there was one, (the
greatest ever given, BTW) they all agree to
hold their ground and keep claiming it.

To us on the outside it makes you look a
bit daffy, you know?

Jesus did truly die and was truly raised. While His divinity could not die, His humanity surely could. Your soul cannot die, but your flesh surely will. It is a sacrifice when you jump on a grenade isn't it? Well your body dies and your soul lives on. How does this differ from Jesus' death on the cross to save humanity besides the fact that His immortal soul was divine?

Well it does differ a lot, but only in the magnitude of what it means to have God willingly sacrifice. I'm really sorry that you don't think God can sacrifice and I can understand your thought. It is unique in all religion to Christianity. But for us God gives up Heaven to save us, He becomes fully and truly one of us, He experiences all that we experience, He suffers and He dies and He rises. There is a reason this is called the Paschal Mystery. I understand you having a hard time getting your mind around this. Most of us picture God up in the clouds distant from us; at best a divine cheerleader at worst a disinterested clockmaker. So to hear that God truly became man out of love for humanity and actually suffered and died for us - mind blown! Such amazing love to sacrifice in some sense what it means to be God all for you. Here is a good song for you to listen to in order to better understand this amazing truth:

Quote: FrGamble

But for us God gives up Heaven to save us, He becomes fully and truly one of us, He experiences all that we experience, He suffers and He dies and He rises.

A nice story, but WHERE is the sacrifice? He lost nothing
except his earthly body, which we ALL lose. Him losing
that is nothing. Suffering for awhile when you know the
good outcome is not a sacrifice. Certainly not an earth
shattering one. It looks to me like god gave up absolutely
nothing of any value. Jesus sits at his right hand today,
just as he knew he would.

He had an adventure, as gods tend
to do. He played a game, he took earthly form to teach
a few lessons. A sacrifice? Not seeing it. And
I should be seeing it if it's as great as everybody
says. It should be glaring and obvious. Why isn't
it? There is a ton written on this, I'm not alone in
my opinion.

It's not just a nice story it is the greatest story. God who never has to suffer or experience death does so for us. He basically gives up being God, even if it was for an instance can you understand the magnitude of that?!? The all powerful creator of the universe is born as a helpless babe in a stable to a poor couple and lives an ordinary life for thirty some years then embarks on His public ministry to teach us and show us to way to happiness in this life and the life to come. Then as the innocent lamb of God suffers and dies for us, paying the price for all sin so as to open for us the way to Heaven. He is raised and never loses His earthly body that He still possesses at the right hand of God in Heaven. God became man not for a temporary moment for the rest of eternity.

I think part of the reason you are not seeing it is because you can't grasp the idea that God could or would actually suffer. It is amazing and a mystery of love sublime. There is a lot more written about the sacrifice of God than not and if you aren't finding it I suggest you might be looking in the wrong places and not reading the right stuff. You might start by re-reading one of the Gospels.

Quote: FrGamble

It's not just a nice story it is the greatest story. God who never has to suffer or experience death does so for us. He basically gives up being God, even if it was for an instance can you understand the magnitude of that?!?.

As Nareed pointed out, god goes-a-slumming
with the people he created, that's his 'sacrifice'?
He experiences something humanity experiences
on a daily basis, and we're supposed to admire
that? The rich man comes out of the mansion
on the hill and works with his employees at his
own mill?

Rome crucified a few hundred thousand people,
none of them had the advantage of knowing they
were god. The bosses son. What about them, what
about their suffering? The suffering of an all knowing
god pales in comparison.