Is Satan Real

Quote: Nareed

At some point it gets tiresome to take the myth seriously.

It's like a complex juggling act. To believe
Jesus died for our sins, you have to believe
a whole cadre of other dubious propositions.

That Mary was impregnated by god. That
she was a virgin. That Jesus was god in
the form of a man. That he walked on water
and rose men from the dead and turned
water into wine. That he could heal people.
That there really is sin. That he came here
to save us. None of these things are proven
to have happened and none of them can
be replicated by science. Yet you have to
believe every one of them to believe what
Jesus represented on the cross.

At least in science you have steps along
the way that can be proven to be true.
You build your theory on positives, one
link at a time. It's only religion that take's
half a dozen maybe's and comes out with
a 100% clear decision. That's not scientific,
that's voodoo. That's taking a bunch of
unproven hearsay info and drawing a
positive conclusion from it. That's why
all of this makes a pragmatic person very
uncomfortable.

Evenbob, congratulations you were making one of the best and most coherent arguments I've read from you in a while, until you went off the rails towards the end of the third paragraph.

Quote: Evenbob

It's only religion that take's
half a dozen maybe's and comes out with
a 100% clear decision. That's not scientific,
that's voodoo. That's taking a bunch of
unproven hearsay info and drawing a
positive conclusion from it. That's why
all of this makes a pragmatic person very
uncomfortable.

We live in a world of maybe's and we seem to be perfectly fine with making a 100% clear decision. You ate your food today with a maybe that it was poisoned, you drove with a maybe that other people would follow the laws of the road, you met a few people who were maybe who they said they were but you 100% believed them. It might not be strictly scientific but that's life.

It certainly is not unproven hearsay, you have had nothing but good experiences with people driving, the food you eat, and the people you've met. That leads you to make the reasonable clear decisions you do. Religion is not unproven hearsay. There are billions upon billions of people, myself as one of them that have come to experience the real and loving presence of Jesus Christ in our lives. That is where my positive conclusions come from. A pragmatic and thinking person knows that we must be comfortable with faith, trust, and testimony or we simply could not live life as we know it. If you needed to have no maybe's before you made a decision you would never get out your door, never fall in love, never take an adventure, and never live.

Quote: FrGamble

You ate your food today with a maybe that it was poisoned, you drove with a maybe that other people would follow the laws of the road, you met a few people who were maybe who they said they were but you 100% believed them.

But we have scientific safeguards in place. The FDA
inspects out food rather well. Drivers are for the
most part well trained, and drive safe cars. And
using caution with new people is a must.

Quote: FrGamble

Religion is not unproven hearsay. There are billions upon billions of people, myself as one of them that have come to experience the real and loving presence of Jesus Christ in our lives..

That's the very definition of hearsay. A billion
wrongs don't make it right. It's a form of light
mass hysteria. Or like he says in Catch 22, if
everybody else believes a certain way, I'd be
a fool to believe anything else. People are
unbelievably gullible. The power of suggestion
is an amazing thing, especially if you get to
them young. Brainwash them early and you've
got them for life.

I have zero doubt that you think Jesus speaks
to you in a hundred different ways. You want
to believe it, you need to believe it, so you
do. Welcome to organized religion.

Quote: Evenbob

But we have scientific safeguards in place. The FDA
inspects out food rather well.

The spiritual safeguards are handled by the Vatican.

Quote:

I have zero doubt that you think Jesus speaks
to you in a hundred different ways. You want
to believe it, you need to believe it, so you
do.

You keep going back to this and it is a little offensive. I believe it because it is true. Now you will ask me to prove it and I will list a whole series of things from billions of people, to history, modern science, philosophy, logic, the human condition - all of which you will deny is evidence and say doesn't count and we will go around again.

Quote: FrGamble

The spiritual safeguards are handled by the Vatican.

The Mormon safeguards are handled in
Salt Lake City. Scientology's in Clearwater,
FL. Yours in the Vatican. Very comforting
for the true believers.

Quote: FrGamble

You keep going back to this and it is a little offensive. I believe it because it is true.

True for you, not for me. If that's the case,
is it really true? do you know atheism is
on the rise worldwide? It has to be if we
are to go into the future and realize our
full potential. Religion served it's purpose,
it's more a curiosity now than anything
else. Long gone are the days when you
went into a town or city and the tallest
building always belonged to the temple
or church, which told you who was in power.

Now the tallest belong to the business world.
The heyday of religion is in the past.

Quote: FrGamble

.... billions of people...

Prior to Christianity's existence, approx 46 billion had been born, lived, and died. Since then, a good 50 billion more have be born, lived, and died. There's currently about 7 billion of us still hanging around, 2 of which identify as Christian.

Quote: Evenbob

True for you, not for me. If that's the case,
is it really true? do you know atheism is
on the rise worldwide?

You know what else is on the rise; crime, suicide, drug use, violence, killing, war, terror. Maybe there is a connection?

Quote:

It has to be if we
are to go into the future and realize our
full potential.

Without God we have no future.

Quote: FrGamble

You know what else is on the rise; crime, suicide, drug use, violence, killing, war, terror.

You know what's always been here and
always will be? Crime, suicide, drug use,
violence, killing, war, terror.

Quote: FrG

Without God we have no future.

With or without god the future is a surety.

Quote: FrGamble

You know what else is on the rise; crime, suicide, drug use, violence, killing, war, terror.

You know 87% of all statistics are made up?

Quote:

Without God we have no future.

In this universe we do quite well without God. After all, God was invented, what, 5000 years ago or so? The universe did very well before then.

God invented the universe, there was no time before God.