Original Sin?

Quote: FrGamble

I also agree that there is undeserved guilt but I have a hard time attributing this to the Church. .

"The term 'Catholic guilt' is generally used to describe the feelings of remorse or conflict in people who are or were raised Catholic. Sometimes this guilt is associated with specific church teachings, since when people feel that they have violated their faith’s laws they tend to feel guilty about it. The phrase also has a broader meaning, though. Many Catholic teachings emphasize the inherent sinfulness of all people, which can lead to a certain degree of self-loathing even in the absence of some obvious transgression. Guilt in this sense is usually related to inherent imperfections and daily failings that cause a person to feel that he or she is isolated from God and unworthy of reconciliation. Some scholars have linked this sort of religious-based guilt to obsessive compulsive disorder."


In my brief time trying to be a Christian
40 years ago, those poor kids felt
guilty about everything. When my
friend would get a boner looking at
a girl in the group, he was racked with
guilt. When he had a wet dream because
he couldn't masturbate, he was almost
suicidal with guilt.

They were guilty if they missed a church
meeting, or if they didn't thank Jesus
enough. There were so many things they
were encouraged to feel guilt about, it's
the main reason I left. They were all a
neurotic mess, it was a 12 step program
for guilt, always leaning on each other for
support. I got out of there fast. I can totally
see where it would lead to obsessive-compulsive
disorder. Guilt has no function except to keep
people in line, to make them do what you
want. It's the most effective tool the Church has.

Quote: kenarman

I don't disagree that many if not the vast majority of people feel guilt but it is a destructive emotion that keeps people from being productive.

Guilt keeps people from being productive
and often paralyzes them emotionally.
This is exactly the kind of person the Church
wants to see filling the offering plate and
running to confession spilling their guts.
Guilt keeps the masses in line, keeps them
coming back, keeps them emotionally
dependent on the Church. Advertising tries
to do the same thing, but it can't get near
the hold that Christian guilt has on people.

We'll have to overlook your gross over exaggeration as well. Nothing of the sort happens at any Church I know of. You are welcomed, loved, cared for, encouraged, inspired, and challenged. In fact the Church often goes out and tries to find those who aren't working out and who haven't showered and invites them to get healthy. The reasons gyms don't do this is because they are businesses that care about money. As much as some of you will guffaw, the Church doesn't care about money - it cares about people and their immortal souls.

Can you name a rule that the Church asks its members to follow that is not rational?

Quote: Evenbob

Guilt keeps people from being productive
and often paralyzes them emotionally.
This is exactly the kind of person the Church
wants to see filling the offering plate and
running to confession spilling their guts.
Guilt keeps the masses in line, keeps them
coming back, keeps them emotionally
dependent on the Church. Advertising tries
to do the same thing, but it can't get near
the hold that Christian guilt has on people.

As usual, you couldn't be more wrong! Guilt as I've mentioned before is like pain, it motivates people to avoid the things that cause it. If dealt with it does the opposite of paralyzing people. Now if you don't do anything about your guilt or remorse, yes it can hurt you. Please remember you yourself recently said that confession was a good thing Catholics do, it is like free therapy (not really) and it helps them move past their guilt (yes it does!). You should feel guilty about how hypocritical you are at times - but don't worry I forgive you.

By the way you have to look no further than your own recent posts about feeling remorse to see the proof for sin you have been looking for. Another good definition of sin is the things we do we feel we shouldn't or the things we don't do that we feel we should. The effect of sin is remorse, guilt, or sorrow which I think we are all using quasi interchangeably right now.

Quote: FrGamble

Can you name a rule that the Church asks its members to follow that is not rational?

It all goes back to the title of this thread,
original sin. If you believe in sin, they have
you. Any rational rule they have will be OK
with you because you're a filthy dirty sinner
in god's eyes, you have a lot of work to do,
these rules are just a start.

If you don't believe in sin, the Church has nothing
on you, you're unwilling to play its game. And
it's a game, make no mistake. They drag you
in with the sin fallacy and guilt puts you in a
box that only the Church has the key for. Run,
Will Robinson, run the other way as fast as you
can. Don't buy into it, think for yourself.

Again for the 100th time, Original Sin is not about how filthy you are as a sinner, but it is about your original goodness that we are all trying to recover. You continue to think that original sin is a teaching that we are full of sin, no. It is about our innate goodness weakened by the temptation to selfishness and pride. We are made in the image and likeness of God, but we struggle to do what we know we should - you yourself admitted this a few posts ago!?!

You are not a filthy sinner, you are a child of God. It is work to sin, you constantly have to fight against your nature, your conscience, and guilt and remorse. It is not work to live up to your potential to be holy and good, it comes natural to us because of who we are made to be. I really hope you get this now. "My yoke is easy, my burden light."

If you don't believe in sin - you are simply fooling yourself. You have felt remorse, we all have. There are other ways to eliminate that feeling of remorse in your life than religion, but we did not invent this "game". If you run away from your guilt or remorse you simply will not be able to outrun it or lose it, it will catch up to you. You have to deal with it. How is up to you, but please don't use religion as some scapegoat to not deal with your issues.

Quote: FrGamble

We'll have to overlook your gross over exaggeration as well. Nothing of the sort happens at any Church I know of.

[Grossly unfair analogy to the PRC removed]

But what would you call confession and penance? I have never experienced Christian prayers, but I've read a few sermons and many were harshly critical of everyday, harmless actions.

Quote:

You are welcomed, loved, cared for, encouraged, inspired, and challenged.

So you no longer advice gays and lesbians to remain celibate forever? I haven't heard anything regarding this recently, so I conclude you and yours still think love between two people is a sin, if they happen to be of the same sex.

There is no way, none at all, by which I could even begin to think of this as anything other than massively evil and malicious.

I hesitate to bring up transgender issues, because thus far you've been a perfect gentleman in this regard. I'll just say the official stand by the Catholic church is, to put it charitably, ignorant and destructive. And the stories I've heard from transgender Christians in other denominations just drive me to despair.

It's gotten too busy at the office and I can only dodge work for so long. I'll finish later.

Quote: FrGamble

You continue to think that original sin is a teaching that we are full of sin,

Some definitions of original sin:

inclination to evil, inherent in human nature.

the hereditary stain with which we are born

the belief taught in Christianity that people will naturally do bad or evil things

a depravity, or tendency to evil, held to be innate in humankind

born with a built-in urge to do bad things and to disobey God.

So we indeed ARE born with a filthy stain,
we are born inclined to commit sins and
do evil. Just as I said.

Quote: FrGamble

If you don't believe in sin - you are simply fooling yourself.

If you DO believe in sin, you've bought a bill
of goods. There is zero proof sin exists, except
to perpetuate organized religion and control
the people. Thankfully we live in times where
I can speak the truth without fear of being
ostracized and punished by the Church for
being a heretic.

Quote: Evenbob

So we indeed ARE born with a filthy stain,
we are born inclined to commit sins and
do evil. Just as I said.

I think your above comment is very different than when you said, "because you're a filthy dirty sinner
in god's eyes".

Sin exists outside of organized religion and well before it. Religion is an attempt to free us from it. Again your remorse for you actions or lack thereof is proof of sin and at the same time proof of your goodness.

Quote: FrGamble

I think your above comment is very different than when you said, "because you're a filthy dirty sinner
in god's eyes".

I'm not a sin expert, I don't need to be. All
I need to know is it's a part of the
scam in some religions. Make a person
feel guilty for their sins and where do they
have to go with it, how can they unload
the guilt. Now that they've made you feel
guilty, guess what, they also have the
cure for your fictitious malady. How convenient.

Patent medicine hucksters used the same
ploy. Get crowds all revved up and worried
that they've got some horrible disease,
then sell them the cure. Uncle Bob's Tonic
is the cure for your fake disease, Jesus is
the cure for your fake sin. Both cures work
equally well, depending on much of the
salesmans talk you bought into.