Original Sin?

Quote: FrGamble

Since we began we have been always looking for a way to handle and deal with our mistakes and failures, whether you believe in God or not, .

So sin is just a mistake or failure? It's none
of these things:

inclination to evil, inherent in human nature.

the hereditary stain with which we are born

the belief taught in Christianity that people will naturally do bad or evil things

a depravity, or tendency to evil, held to be innate in humankind

born with a built-in urge to do bad things and to disobey God.


All mistakes are sin and need to be forgiven
by god? The definitions of sin all say it's evil,
depravity, disobeying god. You say it's just
making mistakes. No wonder sin has to be
explained to people, nobody can say what it
is that makes any sense.

Quote: FrGamble

For the last time the Church does NOT teach that people are innately bad, that is the opposite of what Original Sin teaches us. .

Why do so many Catholics suffer lifetime
crushing guilt, then. If your system to help
them is so bad it makes them feel worse than
the actual transgression, aren't you doing
them a disservice?

Sins are actions or inactions we feel remorse for and you have admitted as much that they exist. What you seem to conflate is the concept of Original Sin. Original Sin is not an actual sin that you or I have committed. It is an explanation for the natural tendency in us to do selfish things aka actual sins. This too you have gone back and forth with admitting. Telling me before that in watching kids it is obvious that they tend to be selfish or in other posts that we tend to do whatever we want to do no matter what (that is a good working definition of Original Sin).

So yes all mistakes or omissions that we know we shouldn't have done or should have done and yet we did or didn't do it are actual sins - now do you see why it sounded crazy for you to deny this? The idea of Original Sin is the reasoning behind why we are weak and prone to actually sin. This too I think you would be foolish to doubt. You might not like the term "Original Sin", but I think you realize that even when we are trying to live up to our own standards, much less God's, we fall frustratingly short. Why is this?

Many good people are more attune, sometimes in an unhealthy way, to their sins or mistakes. Those who have very sensitive consciences can feel guilt more acutely than those who have gotten used to ignoring that inner voice telling them they are doing wrong. It's like when you get really good at something you notice little things that the amateurs don't notice and you want to correct them. To the beginner it seems a little off, "come on you scored 50 points and your complaining that your footwork on your jumper was a little off?" You might see it as crushing guilt, the good Catholic might see it as growing in the love of God and neighbor and striving to be perfect like our heavenly father is perfect.

I have a question. Not sure if it's about sin, but it's one that's been nagging at me.

I remember talking to you, FrG, about getting into Heaven. Based on my knowledge of the Bible, there are a few conditions that must be met. For one, one must repent of their sins. I cannot / have not / will not do that, because I don't believe sin exists. Another is to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior. I cannot / have not / will not, because I don't believe he is. And the last is to be baptized. I have not / will not, because reasons.

You, FrG, seem to contradict that. You say it it easy to get into Heaven, or at least not all that hard. I remember when explaining myself before, you said "I may spend some time in purgatory", but you pretty much guaranteed I was Heaven bound.

That works for now, so let's go with it. Now, I imagine Heaven as some infinite garden. How exactly it's set up and what it contains is immaterial; you have the love of God, and everything is all right. You are completely fulfilled. There is no one better than you, no one lesser than you. You are all "perfect", as the image of God. Finally in Heaven, cleansed, saved, perfect.

If that's the case, and it seems reasonable to assume it's so,... why bother? I mean, any time spent in purgatory compared to the infinite eternity in Heaven is insignificant. Doesn't matter if it's a million eons... against eternity, against the infinite, it is but a speck. So you and I, for all intents and purposes, will end up with the same thing.

Anyone can volunteer at a soup kitchen. Anyone can be motivation to someone down on their luck. Anyone can preach the word of God. Your position doesn't give you that ability, anyone can go do that. You can be a beacon, a shining light, a glimmer of hope in this otherwise dark world, regardless of race, color, creed, sexuality, or religious denomination.

So what is it that made you give your life to this? I mean, what is it really, way down deep inside? I can't figure out the surface - It can't be a selfish reason, like access to Heaven 2.0. You the Godly One and me the Lost One get the same thing. It can't be a selfless reason, because all the good you do can be done collar or no. So what is? What makes you tick? What makes you more committed to Fatherhood than I might be to fatherhood?

Personal, I know. Just curious.

Quote: FrGamble

You might not like the term "Original Sin",

Oh no! There are grades of sin, venial and mortal.
If you're gonna invent sin, you might as well put
them in categories. Little sins and big bad sins,
as well as OS. Keeping god happy seems to be
a 24/7 job. If you believe in him, that is. Which
more and more every day I do not.

The way it looks to me, all this was cooked up by
the Church to keep the peasants in line. The more
rules, the more complicated, the better. The more
power those in charge have. It's 1245 AD and I'm
an ignorant farmer, no education at all. Some
priest hits me with all this mumbo jumbo, shows
me up for the dumb hick that I am, of course I'll
do whatever he says. Worked for a long time,
nothing works forever.

Quote: FrGamble

I could not disagree more strongly.

Imagine my surprise! ;)

Quote:

If you tag him as a shoplifter and have him hold that remorse as a chronic wound he will begin to identify himself as a no good shoplifter.

Who said anything about tagging anyone?

Quote:

While the fear of you turning him in or having to face the wrath of Nareed will work for a bit - it has no true staying power and absolutely no power to actually convert the heart or change the person.

Actually several studies show that the chances of facing jail time or other punishment are one huge factor in the crime rate. It's not fear of being turned in, but rather the certainty that it will happen.

Quote:

It is a million times better to free the person of the guilt and shame of shoplifting so they know that they are better than the crime and that a thief is NOT who they are.

The he should provide restitution to the shopkeeper. Sine we agree turning himself in wouldn't be a good move, he could do something else. Perhaps offer to help in some way, or sweep the sidewalk in front of the store.

Donating money to a third party does not make him a good person, nor should that assuage his guilt even a tiny iota's worth.

But I'm beginning to understand why people think a symbolic but pointless gesture is a good deed...

Quote:

The requirement to receive forgiveness is a sincere contrition for their sin. In the case of murder I would be hard pressed to be convinced of their true sorrow if they were not willing to turn themselves in.

How about a priest who confesses to abusing a child?

Evenbob, it really isn't that hard:
Sin - an action we do that we regret or something we don't do that causes remorse.
Mortal sin - a big sin, something that is very serious that we freely committed
Venial sin - a small sin, a little white lie, stole a paperclip, etc.
Original Sin - not an actual sin we commit but is the answer to explain why naturally good people made in the image and likeness of God have a tendency to commit sin.

The first three are painfully obvious to anyone; your problem is with the concept of original sin. So what is your theory as to why we seem so weak in the face of temptation and commit sinful acts of commission or omission?

Quote: Nareed

Actually several studies show that the chances of facing jail time or other punishment are one huge factor in the crime rate. It's not fear of being turned in, but rather the certainty that it will happen.

Again you can delay a crime from happening with the certainty of someone getting in trouble for it, but it does nothing to change the mind and heart of the person who wants to commit the crime. As soon as you go on vacation or are no longer in the position to turn him in the deterrent is gone.

Quote:

But I'm beginning to understand why people think a symbolic but pointless gesture is a good deed...

It's a start. No generous or charitable deed is pointless.

Quote:

How about a priest who confesses to abusing a child?

In this case, or the more common instance when a child is abused by a family member or school teacher, it would be even a more stringent requirement of true remorse to turn oneself in.

Face, thanks for the question. I wish I could write as well as you in order to give an answer. I fear that the medium of the forum and writing might not be conducive, it is something better talked about sitting in the backyard over a few beers. Nevertheless I will give it a shot.

First of all I would like to commend you on your insights about Heaven and Purgatory, they do match up with my own and I believe what the Catholic Church teaches. Some priests I know joke around about being a priest because as they say, "the retirement benefits are out of this world!" That is true, but as you point out so are the rewards for all of those good people whom God loves and who earnestly struggle to do good and who through no fault of their own do not know Christ or cannot believe in Him for many varied and often personal reasons. So why not be a high school teacher and football/baseball coach, which was my first dream of what I wanted to be when I grow up?

Believe me going into college the priesthood was not my plan, it wasn't even on my radar. I had pretty much left the practice of the faith and Jesus Christ was bumped off the throne of my life by a new god named sports. It wasn't until I was demoted to point guard for the women's varsity practice squad that I started to realize my new god was fickle. (In division one often the girls can't find other girls good enough to give them a good game so they call on us) To play on one of the best intramural basketball teams you kind of had to join their Bible Study and they were pretty hard core protestant. When they would ask me questions about my Catholic faith and I had no answers. At the same time I knew their misconceptions about the Catholic Church were way off so I went and asked a priest. This was the first time I ever talked to one by the way. What began was a journey towards discovering that not only did the Church have answers to these questions and other deeper questions about the meaning of life and who we are as human beings, but these answers were beautiful, reasonable, and inspiring to me. So the first part of my answer to you is that I find the reward of faith not just in the hereafter but in the here and now. The more I explore my faith and its teachings the more I discover amazing and awesome beauty. Not to sound too pious or mushy but my tearjerkers are often theology books that express the truth of the human person so profoundly and in such a loving and inspiring way that I weep. I wish I could better explain these things here because I only think I make Evenbob and Nareed weep in laughter or frustration.

So again, priesthood was not on my radar. I knew I could be a faithful lay person and do great things as a coach. However, as I began to discover my faith I also began to pray. In my prayer I began to feel a nagging call to explore the priesthood, which I did on the down low just to calm my conscience. I eventually told my mom, who told the Vocations Director, and a tour was arranged of the seminary in the summer between my sophomore and junior year. I only went because I was convinced I would hate it and could finally go back to my life and my new apartment with my football buddies off campus. I never made it to that new apartment. I prayed so hard that I would not want to be a priest, that I would hate the seminary, that I would meet mean people who would turn me off. I was greeted by the vice-rector at the doors of the seminary and his first words to me were, "This is not a priest factory. The worst thing that can happen to you if you come hear will be that you will be a better Christian." He had me at hello. I spent the next few years studying philosophy and trying to pray my way out of seminary, but God was truly calling me. This is my second part of my answer to you. I was called to the priesthood by Jesus Christ. It wasn't my idea. I opened myself up to the will of God and he asked me to be a priest and I said, "Yes".

Finally, I want to say that through my trusting in Jesus I realized two fundamental truths. God wants nothing more than my happiness and that my happiness is found in doing the will of God. Finally, I reveal my circular thinking to Ace and Bob! The will of God seen throughout the Scriptures is to be a man or woman of service. I have never been more at peace and joyful than when I am humbly serving another. Whether it is finding ways to help them pay their rent or keep the heat on, dishing out food or blankets at our cold weather shelter, whether it is intervening with their child to get them the addiction help he needs, forgiving someone from their sin they have carried for too long, preaching with enthusiasm, crying with someone who has recently lost a loved one or a job, leading worship with reverence, visiting people in prison, nursing homes, or hospitals to bring them the presence of the God who loves them, organizing programs for adult education or youth camps for underprivileged kids, etc... this tiring and difficult work is when I am truly happy. My heaven on earth is found in serving others and I am so grateful that I feel called by God to do so in the unique role of the priesthood. I have been a priest now for 11 years and through the ups and downs I am eternally grateful to God for what I feel is a beautiful and happy life.

[edit: I forgot to add to the list of things I enjoy - the fun times I have debating and writing on DT. I also want to thank Face for asking this question. In the busyness of Christmas prep and some other issues I have recently been in one of those down times, writing this long and perhaps unreadable essay has really cheered me up. Peace and thanks everyone!]

Quote: FrGamble

It's a start. No generous or charitable deed is pointless.

I don't think it's a start in the way you think. More a start in understanding one small human behavior with very negative consequences.

There's a podcast I follow which I've mentioned before "Philosophy in Action." I've done three things concerning it:

1) I've sent questions to the queue. This helps by providing the ideas for the show (it's mostly about answering questions).

2) I've donated some money to the podcast (it's available for free). I don't keep track of how much. This includes buying the book on Moral Luck by the podcast's philosopher, and a $50 contribution towards a policy paper against "personhood."

3) I give it likes and shares on Facebook.

Of the three, I've no doubt the third one makes me feel good, but is as near to useless in promoting the podcast as makes no difference.

If I had a large Facebook following, then it might make an impact and be actually helpful. As it is, it does nothing much. For many people these kinds of symbolic gestures take the place of actual, useful actions. If their religious leaders promote this, I can understand the problem better.

Quote: FrGamble

Face, thanks for the question. I wish I could write as well as you in order to give an answer. I fear that the medium of the forum and writing might not be conducive, it is something better talked about sitting in the backyard over a few beers. Nevertheless I will give it a shot.

First of all I would like to commend you on your insights about Heaven and Purgatory, they do match up with my own and I believe what the Catholic Church teaches. Some priests I know joke around about being a priest because as they say, "the retirement benefits are out of this world!" That is true, but as you point out so are the rewards for all of those good people whom God loves and who earnestly struggle to do good and who through no fault of their own do not know Christ or cannot believe in Him for many varied and often personal reasons. So why not be a high school teacher and football/baseball coach, which was my first dream of what I wanted to be when I grow up?

Believe me going into college the priesthood was not my plan, it wasn't even on my radar. I had pretty much left the practice of the faith and Jesus Christ was bumped off the throne of my life by a new god named sports. It wasn't until I was demoted to point guard for the women's varsity practice squad that I started to realize my new god was fickle. (In division one often the girls can't find other girls good enough to give them a good game so they call on us) To play on one of the best intramural basketball teams you kind of had to join their Bible Study and they were pretty hard core protestant. When they would ask me questions about my Catholic faith and I had no answers. At the same time I knew their misconceptions about the Catholic Church were way off so I went and asked a priest. This was the first time I ever talked to one by the way. What began was a journey towards discovering that not only did the Church have answers to these questions and other deeper questions about the meaning of life and who we are as human beings, but these answers were beautiful, reasonable, and inspiring to me. So the first part of my answer to you is that I find the reward of faith not just in the hereafter but in the here and now. The more I explore my faith and its teachings the more I discover amazing and awesome beauty. Not to sound too pious or mushy but my tearjerkers are often theology books that express the truth of the human person so profoundly and in such a loving and inspiring way that I weep. I wish I could better explain these things here because I only think I make Evenbob and Nareed weep in laughter or frustration.

So again, priesthood was not on my radar. I knew I could be a faithful lay person and do great things as a coach. However, as I began to discover my faith I also began to pray. In my prayer I began to feel a nagging call to explore the priesthood, which I did on the down low just to calm my conscience. I eventually told my mom, who told the Vocations Director, and a tour was arranged of the seminary in the summer between my sophomore and junior year. I only went because I was convinced I would hate it and could finally go back to my life and my new apartment with my football buddies off campus. I never made it to that new apartment. I prayed so hard that I would not want to be a priest, that I would hate the seminary, that I would meet mean people who would turn me off. I was greeted by the vice-rector at the doors of the seminary and his first words to me were, "This is not a priest factory. The worst thing that can happen to you if you come hear will be that you will be a better Christian." He had me at hello. I spent the next few years studying philosophy and trying to pray my way out of seminary, but God was truly calling me. This is my second part of my answer to you. I was called to the priesthood by Jesus Christ. It wasn't my idea. I opened myself up to the will of God and he asked me to be a priest and I said, "Yes".

Finally, I want to say that through my trusting in Jesus I realized two fundamental truths. God wants nothing more than my happiness and that my happiness is found in doing the will of God. Finally, I reveal my circular thinking to Ace and Bob! The will of God seen throughout the Scriptures is to be a man or woman of service. I have never been more at peace and joyful than when I am humbly serving another. Whether it is finding ways to help them pay their rent or keep the heat on, dishing out food or blankets at our cold weather shelter, whether it is intervening with their child to get them the addiction help he needs, forgiving someone from their sin they have carried for too long, preaching with enthusiasm, crying with someone who has recently lost a loved one or a job, leading worship with reverence, visiting people in prison, nursing homes, or hospitals to bring them the presence of the God who loves them, organizing programs for adult education or youth camps for underprivileged kids, etc... this tiring and difficult work is when I am truly happy. My heaven on earth is found in serving others and I am so grateful that I feel called by God to do so in the unique role of the priesthood. I have been a priest now for 11 years and through the ups and downs I am eternally grateful to God for what I feel is a beautiful and happy life.

[edit: I forgot to add to the list of things I enjoy - the fun times I have debating and writing on DT. I also want to thank Face for asking this question. In the busyness of Christmas prep and some other issues I have recently been in one of those down times, writing this long and perhaps unreadable essay has really cheered me up. Peace and thanks everyone!]

Good one! Very interesting and well-written.