Original Sin?

Not a few posts ago you mentioned how good the Sacrament of Reconciliation made people feel and it is true. Religion did not invent guilt, only forgiveness from it. There are some people that have unhealthy guilt that is for sure, I don't know why this is Catholic guilt. In general we all feel guilt; it is the equivalent in the moral life as to what pain is to our physical bodies. Guilt warns us that we are doing wrong and should change our ways. Some people, check that, all people don't like that feeling so some ignore it, drink, do drugs, or chew tobacco or whatever else makes it go away. They get angry at the suggestion they need to change something in their lives. Other people take that guilt and transform it into positive energy to seek forgiveness, recognize they can do better, and trust in God's unconditional love for them. Yet again you have shown unwittingly that religion frees us: first, to make our world, our lives, and other's lives better by not accepting things the way they are but fighting for change and secondly, that it offers us new beginnings and freedom from healthy guilt.

Quote: FrGamble

Yet again you have shown unwittingly that religion frees us: first, to make our world, our lives, and other's lives better by not accepting things the way they are but fighting for change and secondly, that it offers us new beginnings and freedom from healthy guilt.

Once again I have shown, wittingly, that religion
is a trap. It's the original 3 card Monty, bait and
switch. It's sucks people in for life, so it can control
them thru guilt. It's a business, plain and simple.

But you know what? Most people need this business,
they are too simple minded and unmotivated to
find anything else. So I say congrats, the Church
long ago tapped into this most basic human need
and has milked it for all it's worth.

Just quit expecting the rest of us, the smart ones,
to come aboard for the ride. Be happy with the
chumps you've gathered and move on. The really
wise know when enough is enough.

The Church does not have a business model. However, let's look at the one you suggest we have and see if it works. Everyone has guilt so let's offer a way to free them from that guilt and remind them that God loves them unconditionally. Not only that lets inspire them to change their lives so the things that were causing them to feel guilty are removed from their lives. Does that sound like controlling, bait and switch, milking people, or a trap?

O wise one can you share your gnostic secrets about how you deal with this most basic need in all humans? Maybe we've got this all wrong and you should be sharing with me what makes you so happy, fulfilled, and free from guilt.

Quote: FrGamble

Everyone has guilt so let's offer a way to free them from that guilt and remind them that God loves them unconditionally.

This I think Padre is where you don't understand EB, myself and millions of other people that don't need the Christian religion. We don't feel guilt. We probably all felt guilt earlier in our lives before we figured it out. Guilt can be a life destroying and all consuming emotion. Get rid of guilt and don't let it into your life. Guilt should also not be confused with sorrow which is a healthy emotion.

The church is a means of getting rid of guilt for those that can't find the way on their own and that is it's good side. The down side it is taught that guilt is unavoidable and only through Christ can we get rid of it. That is the big lie that turns those that don't need the Christian church for a happy, fruitfull and guilt free life against many of it's teachings.

Quote: kenarman

We don't feel guilt. We probably all felt guilt earlier in our lives before we figured it out. Guilt can be a life destroying and all consuming emotion. Get rid of guilt and don't let it into your life.

Guilt is a normal emotion one feels, usually, when one does something wrong to someone else, and for other reasons.

However:

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The church is a means of getting rid of guilt for those that can't find the way on their own and that is it's good side. The down side it is taught that guilt is unavoidable and only through Christ can we get rid of it. That is the big lie that turns those that don't need the Christian church for a happy, fruitfull and guilt free life against many of it's teachings.

There is such a thing as undeserved guilt, or unearned guilt.

If I steal from you, I should feel guilty. That's deserved, because I did something I shouldn't have.

Religions excel at inducing guilt by giving you a lot of ethical commandments, duties, requirements, etc, etc. That's undeserved guilt. You didn't help someone, you skipped church on a Sunday, you didn't thank Jesus for something, you ate a ham sandwich, etc.

There's a prayer in Judaism called, in free transliteration, "Shema Israel," it means something like "Listen up, Israel." In it one is instructed to love God with all of one's heart, all of one's soul and all of one's strength. I read a Protestant sermon once referencing this in this way "You don't love God with some of your heart, only on Sundays." So I suppose this is current in Christian worship as well. You can see this would be a great source of unearned guilt all by itself.

This is one aspect that makes religion so insidious, in particular as regards marginalized groups like gays, lesbians, bisexuals and transgender people. We often find no place in religion that is compatible with living our lives happily (note: this is not why I am atheist and dislike religion, though it's a small part; in other words, please don't point me to this or that accepting congregation, church, synagogue, fire temple and so on).

Quote: FrGamble

Maybe we've got this all wrong and you should be sharing with me what makes you so happy, fulfilled, and free from guilt.

I've been sitting here for 2 min thinking of
what I feel guilty about and I'm not coming
up with a thing. I have some regrets, but those
are about things I didn't do, not things that
I did. Now I'm curious, what do people feel
guilty about, I have no clue. I always take
responsibility for my actions as I'm doing them,
so later I have no problems with my actions.

I don't drink and drive or kick dogs or beat my
wife. If you always do what you think is best at
the time, what's there to feel guilty about.

edited

Quote: Nareed

Guilt is a normal emotion one feels, usually, when one does something wrong to someone else, and for other reasons.

I don't disagree that many if not the vast majority of people feel guilt but it is a destructive emotion that keeps people from being productive. If you have done something you feel is wrong, or conversely feel you have not done something you feel you should have, guilt does not help solve the problem.

Take what actions you can to rectify the situation. If it something that can't be rectified then accept what punishment that the wronged person or society deem is appropriate but why do we need to wallow in guilt. It just becomes another excuse to do nothing. Remorse is closely related to guilt but is not so overpowering and consuming and allows one to continue with their own life and rectify what they can.

Empathy is also a related emotion. The lack of empathy is a serious problem which can allow people to not feel guilt. This is one of the hallmarks of psychopaths. This lack of empathy allows them to do the terrible things they do. It is not this type of guilt free life I am talking about.

You can have great empathy for people but not spend the rest of your life drowning in guilt worrying about what might have been.

Quote: Nareed

Guilt is a normal emotion one feels, usually, when one does something wrong to someone else, and for other reasons.

Agreed.

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However:
There is such a thing as undeserved guilt, or unearned guilt.

If I steal from you, I should feel guilty. That's deserved, because I did something I shouldn't have.

Religions excel at inducing guilt by giving you a lot of ethical commandments, duties, requirements, etc, etc. That's undeserved guilt. You didn't help someone, you skipped church on a Sunday, you didn't thank Jesus for something, you ate a ham sandwich, etc.

I also agree that there is undeserved guilt but I have a hard time attributing this to the Church. If you join a gym and a workout class and never go you would feel guilty, but I don't feel like that would be the gym or instructor inducing you to feel that way. One of the rules of membership is that you come and workout, ultimately if you believe in keeping your physical body healthy then going to the gym is a good thing. You and the group lose out by you not being there.

Quote: FrGamble

I also agree that there is undeserved guilt but I have a hard time attributing this to the Church.

Surprisingly, I do not have a hard time at all ;)

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If you join a gym and a workout class and never go you would feel guilty, but I don't feel like that would be the gym or instructor inducing you to feel that way.

Let's overlook the bad analogy. after all, most people don't join churches, or religions, but are raised within them. Few people are raised within a Gym.

Let's run with it instead. Suppose after a workout you were told you did not wipe every last molecule of sweat from the machine, and that your diet is all wrong and sinful, and you did not advise another member how to raise the slope on the treadmill, and you spilled two drops of water from the cooler, and you haven't been showering before coming to the gym, and your sex life is all wrong and sinful, and no matter how hard you work out it's never hard enough.

That would be the gym as church.

Except, of course, no gym would do something like this.

And the rules I made up are, in large part, more rational than the rules laid down by religion.