Original Sin?

Quote: FrGamble

The idea of a Divine Entity is a common thread throughout human history,

Yes, I know.

But until Judaism arose, there wasn't even a whisper of the Yahweh deity. We "knew" Ra, Anubis, Melkart, and others. Even after Judaism arose, others knew Athena, Jupiter and Heracles. And even after Christianity swept Europe up, the people in the Americas only knew Tlaloc, the Lords of Xybalba, etc.

BTW, the cult of these last demanded, human sacrifices. The evidence is clear these were carried out aplenty. I'm just saying.

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It's interesting that in the wake of the Resurrection event the Apostles and disciples spread all over the world. St. Thomas found himself in India for example. Jesus is pretty clear, "baptize all nations" and "their are others that do not belong to this flock and for those too I have come."

And yet he misused "there" <w> and forgot to tell them there was a massive continent full of people across the ocean.

Sloppy.

Or, perhaps, the people of the time who made the whole thing up barely even knew about the Atlantic. In ancient times, after all, most sea voyages involved hugging the coast. Except for the Mediterranean sea, that is. But the Atlantic was largely ignored, even to travel from, say, Hispania to Britannia, with any sort of cargo or passengers. Who'd spare a thought to what may lie on the other shore, if one even existed?

Quote: Evenbob

I can't let these stand like they are facts.
... So we invented
gods as the catchall explanation. We thought
we saw a creation, so we invented a creator.

That thing we sense, that there is more to the
world than meets the eye, is simply the innate
realization that us and the universe are all
connected, we are it and it is us. And that it's
been here forever in one form or another and
always will be. It's a very peaceful realization.

I can't let this hypocrisy stand without calling it out.

You can't say that recognizing creation around us is an invention and at the same time say that universe has always been here is not an invention. Not only does the idea of creation make sense according to logic but it also is what we experience in our daily lives. When have any of us experienced some type of eternal matter or been able to recognize or know that matter is eternal? Where is the proof for such a radical idea?

I also fail to see the proof that the universe and us are all connected. It seems less peaceful and more like a war. Our relationship with nature and the universe seems more like the Biblical notion of taking dominion over nature and caring for it, striving to control it. It seems like in this broken world the universe is more apt to attack us than live in peace with us.

Nareed if I understand your critique here it is that you are wondering why YHWH took so long to reveal Himself to the world? You also are concerned that if God is all-knowing why didn't He tell His followers of the New World and give them the plans to make sea worthy vessels and navigation maps to reach there sooner, before European greed and politics could corrupt the efforts of missionaries when they eventually sailed over the ocean? These are interesting questions and I'm sure I don't know the answer.

I think you are stretching to try and say that Jesus did not know of other nations or peoples because He did not emphasize crossing the Atlantic. Some of this reminds me of Ace's quote from Jesus Christ Superstar, "why did you pick such a strange land, Israel in 3 BC had no mass communication." These all sound like interesting thought experiments to me. We like to play armchair quaterback, but if we've learned anything from our time traveling movies it is that when we try to change something even to what we think might be really good, it can turn out much later very, very bad.

Quote: FrGamble

It seems like in this broken world

There's the fallacy right there, the world
is not broken, it's exactly the way it
should be at all times. The more you
fight against this, the unhappier you'll
be and the more you'll need explanations
from a god you made up to answer all
your questions. Everything in the world
is dependent on everything else in the
world and it's all connected, just as we
are all connected to each other and
the universe.

The more you fight this truth, the more
unhappy and schizoid you will become.
You have to fix everything because to
you it's all broken. Religion did this
to you, but I won't allow it to drag me
into it's insidious net.

Quote: Evenbob

There's the fallacy right there, the world
is not broken, it's exactly the way it
should be at all times. The more you
fight against this, the unhappier you'll
be and the more you'll need explanations
from a god you made up to answer all
your questions. Everything in the world
is dependent on everything else in the
world and it's all connected, just as we
are all connected to each other and
the universe.

The more you fight this truth, the more
unhappy and schizoid you will become.
You have to fix everything because to
you it's all broken. Religion did this
to you, but I won't allow it to drag me
into it's insidious net.

Yup, as the saying goes: It is what it is.

So we shouldn't try to make the world a better place? I know that isn't what you are saying, right? I would think the road to unhappiness and misery would be just to accept everything around us as just the way it is and always will be and to not try to make it better. Religion inspires us to change and to attempt to make our lives and those around us better. Why you think this leads to unhappiness is beyond me. Acceptance of things as they are sounds lazy, boring, and not very smart.

I do agree that everything is dependent on everything else and it's all connected, even more reason to make sure we don't just accept things as they are and do nothing to make them better.

By the way saying that everything is dependent on everything else implies a certain level of causality so you might want to rephrase that for your eternal universe theory.

Quote: FrGamble

So we shouldn't try to make the world a better place?

The vast majority of people are always
trying to make it a better place, what
makes you think they are not. We all
want our kids to have it better than
we had. It doesn't take a god in the
sky constantly watching our every
move and judging us, it just comes
naturally. Things evolve, with or
without the chokehold religion puts
on them. Life is about the here and
now, not about what comes after.
Eternity is right this minute, tomorrow is
an illusion.

Quote: Evenbob

The vast majority of people are always
trying to make it a better place, what
makes you think they are not.

They are indeed, which would assume that something is broken or not right and we have to fix it. Nobody just accepts things the way they are. We all deep down desire something perfect, something better - that desire comes from God.

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We all
want our kids to have it better than
we had. It doesn't take a god in the
sky constantly watching our every
move and judging us, it just comes
naturally.

Actually naturally we are fairly selfish, yet we still want our kids to have it better than us. Kids in particular kind of bring out the supernatural in us - as in "above our nature". They teach us the joy and beauty of sacrificial love. You are right that with the gift of kids you don't necessarily need God because parents naturally desire their good above their own, but for them and for the rest of us it sure helps.

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Things evolve, with or
without the chokehold religion puts
on them. Life is about the here and
now, not about what comes after.
Eternity is right this minute, tomorrow is
an illusion.

Again I don't know where this vitriol is coming from. Religion frees us from the chokehold of an imperfect world and a wounded morality. It inspires us and encourages us to make the world a better place and to be willing to help and serve others. What about that is restricting? Maybe you are giving voice to a secular frustration that religion demands more of me than I am willing to give. People like to do their own thing and not really care for others, I do understand that religion in this way can be challenging for all of us.

Quote: FrGamble

Nareed if I understand your critique here it is that you are wondering why YHWH took so long to reveal Himself to the world?

No, I'm not. I know why. Because he's a made up figure, so naturally he shows up in the world only after people made him up.

Egyptian gods were peculiar in that they had the heads of animals on human bodies. One interesting deity is Anubis, who had plenty to do with death and the dead. Well, in early Egyptian history, before Upper and Lower Egypt were unified, Egyptians buried their dead in the desert outside the cities and towns. The ground they usually picked was rich in substances that absorb moisture. This led to corpses being accidentally preserved sometimes, and later to mummification after death.

But another common occurrence was that jackals would show up at the shallow graves and eat the remains. You can bet the Egyptians noticed this. And coincidentally the god Anubis has the head of a jackal.

And that's one way gods are invented.

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You also are concerned that if God is all-knowing why didn't He tell His followers of the New World and give them the plans to make sea worthy vessels and navigation maps to reach there sooner,

Sea worthy vessels already existed. An average Roman trireme would have been perfectly capable of reaching Canada from Britain, about the shortest voyage, had there been a reason to attempt the crossing.

So how come God or Jesus instruct their followers to spread their ideology to every nation, yet neglects half of the entire world?

Again, because the people writing these things down, invented or not, didn't know about a continent in the Western hemisphere.

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I think you are stretching to try and say that Jesus did not know of other nations or peoples because He did not emphasize crossing the Atlantic.

I'm 100% certain Jesus, along with everyone else in the Eastern hemisphere at the time and for roughly 1,500 years afterwards, did not know abut the Americas because no one knew about the Americas.

An educated person at the time would know the Earth was round, and also how big its circumference was. They'd know, too, far to the east existed a great empire perhaps as vast as Rome's, after all the Romans even traded with it (via Persia). So if this educated person at the time of Augustus thought about what lay westwards from Europe across the Ocean Sea, they'd have concluded it would be a long, long, long way to China.

If you recall, that's what Columbus expected to find, except the dope thought the Earth's circumference to be smaller.

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We like to play armchair quaterback, but if we've learned anything from our time traveling movies it is that when we try to change something even to what we think might be really good, it can turn out much later very, very bad.

Marty McFly, I'm sure, would beg to differ. As would Doc Brown.

Quote: FrGamble

Religion frees us from the chokehold of an imperfect world

What most religion does is make people
dependent on it by never letting them
grow up and mature. When we're kids
it's our parents responsibility to make sure
we learn to act and behave like productive
citizens. When we leave home we're supposed
to be mature enough to do that.

But the Church steps in and says, oh no, hold
your horses. You need an eye in the sky to
keep you in check, to monitor your every
move now that your parents are gone. To
tell you what to do with the minister or priest.
Your church even calls him 'father', you can't
get any closer to a parent than that.

There are people that spend a lot of money on
a shrink to get rid of Catholic guilt. Why is that,
when god and believing in his supposed to be
so good for you.