Original Sin?

Quote: FrGamble

You are correct, Jesus Christ is not theoretical but a real person

And person only, son of a god he
is not.

Quote:

who has changed history in an unimaginable way and .
.

Unfortunately true for millions of
people on the receiving end of
the Church's vengeance in the
name of Jesus.,

Quote: FrGamble

Do you really think I sound like that? I'm sorry if I do. I always try to give reasons to support my believe in God and not just say I believe because I believe.

Yes, I think you sound like that, when you are claiming that something is true for which you have no proof.

Please don't try to minimize what "proof" means again.

Yes, you have plenty of reasons.

At the risk of being repetitive: philosophy, reason, and logic can establish a hypothesis, not define reality, nor does absence of proof to the contrary establish reality.

But the very short version is, to an outside observer, you and EvenBob sound the same.

Quote: Dalex64

But the very short version is, to an outside observer, you and EvenBob sound the same.

Except I don't use reason and
logic to claim there is no god.
I depend on a total lack of
evidence. As you say, you can
only do it by lowering the
bar for proof to a ridiculous
level.

Quote: Dalex64

Yes, I think you sound like that, when you are claiming that something is true for which you have no proof.

Please don't try to minimize what "proof" means again.

Yes, you have plenty of reasons.

At the risk of being repetitive: philosophy, reason, and logic can establish a hypothesis, not define reality, nor does absence of proof to the contrary establish reality.

But the very short version is, to an outside observer, you and EvenBob sound the same.

I'm not trying to minimize what proof means. I'm pointing out that it only exists in math and logic. You are critizing me for what you do yourself hundreds of times a day. You take plenty of reasons and act with trust based on what they point you towards believing and doing. You form a hypothesis just like I do and test it by your actions.
Can you name one thing you believe that you have proof for?

Quote: FrGamble

I'm not trying to minimize what proof means. I'm pointing out that it only exists in math and logic. You are critizing me for what you do yourself hundreds of times a day. You take plenty of reasons and act with trust based on what they point you towards believing and doing. You form a hypothesis just like I do and test it by your actions.
Can you name one thing you believe that you have proof for?

See, you are doing it right there.

You are casting doubt on scientific proof and using it to equate to your version of proof which has nothing BUT doubt and are calling them equally valid and believable. They aren't.

Every scientific thing that I believe in, that has been proven to be true, has been shown to be true through experimentation and demonstration REGARDLESS of whether or not I have personally done the experiments or have seen the results. If there is ever any doubt, it can be experimented upon and demonstrated AGAIN.

What I do hundreds of times a day is in no way compatible to faith in God.

Quote: FrGamble

You form a hypothesis just like I do

But your hypothesis is rigged. Your
intent is not see if there is a god,
your intent is to prove there is one.

So of course you bend and shape
the parameters of what proof is
so your square peg fits that wascally
round hole, kind of.

If you go looking for something
earnestly enough, you will find
it eventually. Or pretend you have.

Quote: Dalex64

See, you are doing it right there.

You are casting doubt on scientific proof and using it to equate to your version of proof which has nothing BUT doubt and are calling them equally valid and believable. They aren't.

Scientific "proof" is different in the sense that it is controlled and in a testing environment. But the nature of it is exactly the same as the faith you have that the person you met is who they say they are and someone's belief in God. It is not doubt filled but it is lived in the real world. It is based on a hypothesis and has a plethora of evidence and experience that makes one certain that my wife loves me and that my food is not poisoned. How is my faith that the lights will work when I switch them on different than my faith that God exists? Why do you say that it has nothing but doubt?

Quote:

Every scientific thing that I believe in, that has been proven to be true, has been shown to be true through experimentation and demonstration REGARDLESS of whether or not I have personally done the experiments or have seen the results. If there is ever any doubt, it can be experimented upon and demonstrated AGAIN.

Every religious thing that I believe in, has been shown to be true through experience and demonstration in my life and the life of others. I may not have personally experienced or seen the results but I trust in the people that have them. If there is ever any doubt, it can be demonstrated again in my own life and the life of others.

Quote:

What I do hundreds of times a day is in no way compatible to faith in God.

I think it is. it is not the same as scientific experiments, but real life is not meant to be lived that way. However, it is no less based on the same principles of faith than my faith in God.

Quote: Evenbob

The most preposterous notion that H. Sapiens has ever dreamed up is that the Lord God of Creation, Shaper and Ruler of all the Universes, wants the saccharine adoration of His creatures, can be swayed by their prayers, and becomes petulant if He does not receive this flattery. Yet this absurd fantasy, without a shred of evidence to bolster it, pays all the expenses of the oldest, largest, and least productive industry in all of history.
[Robert Heinlein, "Notebooks of Lazarus Long," from Time Enough for Love (1973).]

One man's theology is another man's belly laugh.

This man's theology is reason for a belly laugh. At least it sounds funny to a Christian, which cannot be what he is talking about. A God who desires the saccharine adoration of His creatures would not sacrifice His life for them even if they didn't care about Him or even if they hated Him. A God whose hands are always outstretched to mankind no matter what they have done is certainly not petulant and desiring of flattery. To a Christian Heinlein's conception of God is an absurd fantasy without a shred of evidence to bolster it. Maybe that is why Christianity which has shaped the Western world has been the largest and most productive industry in all of history.

Quote: FrGamble

Every religious thing that I believe in, has been shown to be true through experience and demonstration in my life and the life of others.

I see this all the time in my own
family. They have the exact same
experiences as I do in
life, but they give credit to god
for all the positive ones and think
god is looking out for them. This
is silliness to watch. At dinner they
pray profusely, thanking god for
the bounty they are partaking in.
I'm right there, partaking, and
not thanking anybody, except
a shout out to Iowa farmers, maybe.

It's just more reverse engineering.
Something positive happens,
must be god doing it for you. Try
the opposite, try asking for something
and see how often it comes true,
You'll find it's right there along side
of random chance.

Bob, I'm not talking about hitting a green light or finding a good parking spot. I'm talking about belief in God. You are hung up with your vending machine image of God and that prayer are the quarters we use to get what you want.