Original Sin?

Quote: FrGamble

I am seeking where religion and reality meet not just beautiful fantasy.

I don't see where the 'supernatural' and
'fantasy' part is. Over 3000 years ago
Hindu's came up with the idea that
the universe is infinite, with an infinite
number of galaxies. Science is showing
that there are billions of galaxies,
and probably trillions. Some say the
universe is infinite. Isn't it interesting
the Hindu's came up with the same
idea 3000 years ago.

Nothing supernatural or fantasy-like
about virgin birth and walking on
water and rising from the dead. Science
has proved over and over that's totally
possible. Right? When you say you 'need
a little more', what you mean is you need
the stories you've been fed since childhood
to be true or your entire world collapses.

I don't think there is a serious scientist or philosopher who would claim the universe is infinite. Maybe thoughts from 3,000 years ago need to be updated? It seems like ideas from the Judeo-Christian worldview of the Universe being created out of nothing seems to be the more scientific position and backed up by the evidence we now know of.

At least a virgin birth, walking on water, and rising from the dead is possible if you are dealing with God. I guess it seems impossible if you don't believe Jesus was God, I get your point.

Quote: FrGamble

At least a virgin birth, walking on water, and rising from the dead is possible if you are dealing with God..

And seeing thru wall and flying at the
speed of light and jumping over
buildings in a single bound are
possible when dealing with Superman.
I don't think you're making the point
you think you're making.

Randomness does not create or desire patterns yet the established laws of nature direct things in such a way that they form.

No scientist claims the universe is infinite and the Judeo-Christian understanding of creation is in line with scientific evidence of today.

If you don't believe Jesus Christ was God then you may think He did not perform miracles.

Which of these points do you disagree with?

Quote: FrGamble

Randomness does not create or desire patterns yet the established laws of nature direct things in such a way that they form.

The laws of physics developed over
time, they were accidental like
everything that comes from chaos.
That's what science theory says.

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the Judeo-Christian understanding of creation is in line with scientific evidence of today.

I beg you, don't open that can
of worms again.

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If you don't believe Jesus Christ was God

God is a myth, so of course he wasn't.

Quote: Evenbob

The laws of physics developed over
time, they were accidental like
everything that comes from chaos.
That's what science theory says.

That is just factually not true. The physical laws of the universe do not evolve or change. They are universal and constant, which is one of the things that make them so amazing. Just like there is no scientist who says the universe is infinite, there is no scientist that says the physical laws of the universe evolve.

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you, don't open that can
of worms again.

I understand it is embarrassing to you that scientific evidence does not support an eternal universe, much less philosophy or logic, but you shouldn't be afraid of the truth.

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God is a myth, so of course he wasn't.

Good circular argument that.

Quote: FrGamble

The physical laws of the universe do not evolve or change. They are universal and constant

"Dramatic developments in cosmological findings and thought have led some of the world’s premier physicists to propose that our universe is only one of an enormous number of universes with wildly varying properties, and that some of the most basic features of our particular universe are indeed mere accidents—a random throw of the cosmic dice... As put to me recently by Nobel Prize–winning physicist Steven Weinberg, a man as careful in his words as in his mathematical calculations, “We now find ourselves at a historic fork in the road we travel to understand the laws of nature. If the multiverse idea is correct, the style of fundamental physics will be radically changed.”

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I understand it is embarrassing to you

Nope, had that argument with you
umpteen times, neither of us
can add anything new so why bother.

IF and that is a big "if" the multiverse still wouldn't let you escape from the infinite regress problem. I also fail to see how the unbreakable natural physical laws would change. Are these multiverses not connected somehow? Regardless there is no one who would make the claim that physical laws of the universe or the multiverses would evolve, think about what that would mean. They are set and unchangeable and constant. Do you deny this?

"It's not a completely crazy possibility"

I almost said this to an earlier response and didn't, but I will say it now: Google is your friend.

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/article/are-the-laws-of-physics-really-universal/

If you want to know if any scientist believes this or that, look it up.

The "unbreakable laws of physics" have been defined by our understanding of the universe. Every single one of them. You need to be open to the possibility that we are wrong, or will learn something new.

The earlier "Google is your friend" moment was regarding the shape and finiteness of the universe. It is an area of active study, because scientists haven't made up their mind and/or want to verify what they believe with evidence.

I agree we need to be open to the possibility we are wrong or lack a complete understanding. In fact it is essential to any philosophical or scientific thought. I just don't want anyone to think because we don't know we should use it to claim there is a God or that there is not a God.