Original Sin?

Quote: FrGamble

What about the miracle of life itself?

Life is not a miracle, it's the
most common thing there is on
this planet.

mir·a·cle
/ˈmirək(ə)l/

a surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore considered to be the work of a divine agency.

No part of that definition describes
life.

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Also you said a universe that is created can't be random, why?

When you create something it's
designed and planned. You people
even call it 'intelligent design'. Random
is the polar opposite of that. It
flies in the face of everything religion
stands for.

Bob look again at your definition of miracle. I think life fits every aspect of that definition.

Also you need to think more about the nature of randomness. Maybe you could look up the definition and ask yourself if a universe that follows strict natural laws is truly random.

Quote: FrGamble

Bob look again at your definition of miracle. I think life fits every aspect of that definition.

Lets see. "a surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore considered to be the work of a divine agency."

Life is never surprising, it's expected.
Quite often it's not welcome at all.
Natural law and science law explains how life works pretty well.
Never seen in a science book where a 'divine agency' is ever mentioned.

So no, miracle describes no aspect
of life.

How could a random universe not
have natural laws. Without them
there would just be complete chaos.
Maybe you're the one that needs
to do more thinking. Randomness
is always seeking order, that's what
evolution is. Randomness is always
evolving.

Quote: Evenbob

Lets see. "a surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore considered to be the work of a divine agency."

Life is never surprising, it's expected.

Is it really expected? Take a look around our little rock and let me know where you see life.

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Natural law and science law explains how life works pretty well.

What is science law? Life does work amazingly well but go back to your atheist thread and take a long hard look and think about how life began.

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Randomness
is always seeking order, that's what
evolution is. Randomness is always
evolving.

I think you are talking about the exact opposite of randomness. Darwin himself eventually rejected the idea that evolution was always progressing in a certain direction, perhaps because theists were claiming that evolution was the way in which God designed the world to move towards improvement. Random is random and the presence of natural laws restrict that randomness so that giraffes don't just suddenly appear in your living room or you don't find yourself without warning floating above Saturn. I'm okay with agreeing that in the confines of natural law the outcomes are random, I after all appreciate gambling.

Quote: FrGamble

Is it really expected?

It's expected where I live. Don't
you expect the the leaves to come
back every spring and the grass
to grow? Or are you surprised
every time.

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What is science law? Life does work amazingly well but go back to your atheist thread and take a long hard look and think about how life began.

What does how life began have
to do with this discussion?

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I think you are talking about the exact opposite of randomness.

Nope. Random always produces patterns
eventually. Some last and some don't.
Look at the patterns random waves
leave on a beach. Randomness is
always seeking to make sense of
itself. Now imagine what randomness
can come up with over billions of
years and you'll get some idea of
what's going on.

Quote: Evenbob

It's expected where I live.

Do you like in our Solar System? In the known universe? Life is miraculous and unique when you look around a little further than your backyard.

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What does how life began have
to do with this discussion?

Because that is the miraculous aspect of life, how it began. I will grant you that how life works is awe inspiring as well.

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Nope. Random always produces patterns
eventually. Some last and some don't.
Look at the patterns random waves
leave on a beach. Randomness is
always seeking to make sense of
itself. Now imagine what randomness
can come up with over billions of
years and you'll get some idea of
what's going on.

Only because you are looking for patterns, we all do. I don't think randomness is trying to make sense of itself at all, but we are. Maybe you should zoom in really close to the picture you posted and tell us if you see patterns there. I don't think random means what you think it means.

Quote: FrGamble

Life is miraculous and unique

Where conditions are favorable, there's
life. Nothing miraculous about it.

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Because that is the miraculous aspect of life, how it began.

When we eventually find the truth,
believe me it won't involve any
miracles.

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Only because you are looking for patterns, we all do.

The randomness of the universe
produces patterns, some of them
very long lasting and complicated.
Some very short term, like wave
patterns on a beach. Imagine
if there's billions of years for random
to produce patterns. You don't
have to imagine, just look around
you.

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I don't think random means what you think it means.

I don't think you have any idea what
random is.

Quote: Evenbob

Where conditions are favorable, there's
life. Nothing miraculous about it.

Is there anything miraculous about finding the favorable conditions for life?

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When we eventually find the truth,
believe me it won't involve any
miracles.

Your blind faith really amazes me.

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The randomness of the universe
produces patterns,

This is where I think you are wrong.

Quote: FrGamble

Is there anything miraculous about finding the favorable conditions for life?

They now say there might be 2 trillion
galaxies, each having billions of stars.
Given that many potential planets,
that we're the only one fit for life
is pretty much impossible. No
miracles involved.

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Your blind faith really amazes me.

It's only logical. With everything
science has discovered in the last
500 years, has any of them had
a miracle as it's cause? Every single
one has a scientific reason. As will
any discovery made in the future.

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This is where I think you are wrong.

You don't think randomness produces
patterns? What made that pattern on
the beach? Completely random waves
crashing. What makes the intricate
pattern of a snowflake, no two of
which are the same. Randomness.

Quote: Evenbob

They now say there might be 2 trillion
galaxies, each having billions of stars.
Given that many potential planets,
that we're the only one fit for life
is pretty much impossible. No
miracles involved.

That seems like a good "god of the gaps" type of argument.

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Every single
one has a scientific reason. As will
any discovery made in the future.

I continue to be the one with little faith, you have already filled up the gaps with your own belief, I could never do that.

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You don't think randomness produces
patterns?

Here might be the only time you could correctly use your oft repeated phrase that we create our own meaning. You seem to think that randomness seeks to produce such patterns that it is moving by an invisible hand to create beautiful things using the strict laws of nature, tell me more about that.