Original Sin?

November 21st, 2019 at 11:29:23 AM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
You seem to think that randomness seeks to produce such patterns that it is moving by an invisible hand .


HUH? No I don't, that's ridiculous. There
is no invisible hand behind random, it
wouldn't be random if there was. It
creates intricate patterns that look
'created' by some intelligent force,
so of course you go looking for the
creator. Not finding one, you invent
him.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
November 21st, 2019 at 1:08:41 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Okay, I think the problem might be that you ascribe words like "seek" and "create" to randomness. Something truly random wouldn't seek or desire to create anything would it?
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
November 21st, 2019 at 2:41:24 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
Okay, I think the problem might be that you ascribe words like "seek" and "create" to randomness.


You can use seek and create with
no consciousness behind them.
For instance, warm air always
'seeks' the highest point in a home
thereby creating a warmer upstairs
than downstairs. That is certainly
true in my house.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
November 21st, 2019 at 2:47:39 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Warm air is not seeking in the way that a human being seeks truth. Randomness doesn't create patterns in the same was a sculptor makes a work of art.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
November 21st, 2019 at 2:57:30 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
Randomness doesn't create patterns in the same was a sculptor makes a work of art.


Correct. It 'seeks' the same way water
seeks the lowest ground, or the way
negatively charged clouds seek the
positively charged ground as lightening.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
November 21st, 2019 at 7:37:50 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
So really it is not so much randomness that causes these beautiful patterns and intricate snowflakes but it is really the reaults of these natural laws that confine randomness to certain restrictions. It really does make you wonder if there is something more to those laws and where they came from.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
November 21st, 2019 at 8:12:47 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
those laws and where they came from.


You're almost pathologically concerned
with where things 'came from'. Why
do they have to come from anywhere,
why can't they just have been here
forever. This is a concept we have
trouble with because our bodies
are finite. We think we know where
we 'came from', but we really don't.
We cannot conceive of something
with no beginning and no end
because we think we;re surrounded
by beginnings and endings. When
we're actually surrounded by continuance.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
November 21st, 2019 at 8:41:26 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
I can easily conceive of something without a beginning or end; that is God.
Are you not concerned or curious about where we or the universe came from? We, nor the universe created itself. It couldn't be eternal because that creates an infinite regress and breaks the natural laws we know concerning material things.
I'm also curious that you admit our only experience concerning ourselves and everything around us is finite, yet for sone reason you think we are not finite? Why do you think that is?
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
November 21st, 2019 at 10:55:42 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble

Are you not concerned or curious about where we or the universe came from?


Like I said, you're obsessed with
beginnings. Saying god is eternal
is a start. Think bigger. This eternal
god you invented is in an eternal
universe with no start or end. This
is certainly no mystery to the oldest
religion in the world:

According to Hindu vedic cosmology, there is no absolute start to time, as it is considered infinite and cyclic. Similarly, the space and universe has neither start nor end, rather it is cyclical. The current universe is just the start of a present cycle preceded by an infinite number of universes and to be followed by another infinite number of universes.
The dominant theme in Puranic Hindu cosmology, state Chapman and Driver, is of cycles and repetition. There are multiple universes, each takes birth from chaos, grows, decays and dies into chaos, to be reborn again. Further, there are different and parallel realities.

I know this sounds like gobblygook nonsense
to you. There's no god behind it, it just is. This
is what truly enlightened masters discover. They
can't teach it because they can't explain it. All
they can do is point a seeker in the right
direction.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
November 22nd, 2019 at 4:23:53 AM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
It doesn't sound like nonsense. It sounds like pure religious thought that is not grounded in reality or history. It is wishful and beautiful thinking. However, the problem comes when you have to apply logic, science, and look at history. I appreciate your respect for such purely religious and supernatural ideas as you describe, but excuse me if I say I need a little more. I am seeking where religion and reality meet not just beautiful fantasy.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (