Original Sin?

A lack of watching football on Sunday is not saying that there is absolutely no football being played on Sunday. Atheism makes a truth claim that there is definitively no God. You are not saying that you lack belief in God, that I could understand. You are saying that there is no God and have made no bones about it, you go so far often to call those who do believe in God stupid or deluded. So please stop trying to get out of the fact that you as an atheist are saying there is no God. Now of course you have no evidence or logic or anything to support your belief that there is no God but you don't seem to have a problem with that, maybe because you think my belief in God also has no logic, evidence, or anything to support it (even though I have showed you multiple times there is). Anyway quit putting atheists in a different category. If you want to put atheists in a different category than believers I would put them in the blind faith category or emotion driven beliefs, but make no mistake about it - if you are saying there is no God then you are stating a truth claim and positive statement that you belief true, one usually based on evidence, reason, or experience.

Quote: FrGamble

A lack of watching football

I'm opting out of this endless stupid
argument with you, had it way too
many times, I'm not going there
again. It's pointless. Einstein never
said it, but having the same argument
with the same person and expecting
a different outcome is one definition
of insanity.

Quote: FrGamble

A lack of watching football on Sunday is not saying that there is absolutely no football being played on Sunday.

What would you call a lack of studying Bigfoot, or a lack of finding the theoretical basis of the life energy theory of disease, or a lack of studying the reproductive cycles of inter-dimensional quantized purple unicorns on the far side of the Moon?

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Atheism makes a truth claim that there is definitively no God.

Not really. What I claim is that people assert some kind of deity, but fail to present any tangible, falsifiable evidence for their claim. Now, if that were all you did, I wouldn't even notice. But that's not all you do. You lay moral claims on top, and demand people adhere to them. So naturally I notice. And what I notice at the most fundamental, philosophical level, is that the best you offer is an unwarranted assumption, based on millennia-old metaphysics we've clearly grown past the need for (translation, you base it all on Aristotle's very faulty metaphysics).

And that's the best. from there it degenerates into rationalizations, threats, rationalized threats, and then it really gets ugly, cognitively speaking.

So I feel comfortable in saying "There is no evidence that any inter-dimensional purple quantized unicorns are reproducing or have ever reproduced on the far side of the Moon or anywhere else, but I'm open to your evidence to the contrary. Meantime, if you think your belief entitles you to dictate anything to anyone, you're absolutely 100% wrong and have no leg to stand on."

But that's unwieldy, so I instead say "there aren't any gods." People understand that better.

Quote: Nareed

But that's unwieldy, so I instead say "there aren't any gods." People understand that better.

It's hard for atheists to understand what
a threat we are to priests. Their whole
livelihood comes from pretending god
is real and we throw a monkey wrench
into the works. Atheists were taken
very seriously by the Church for a long
time and dealt with harshly. Nothing
worse for a patent medicine salesman
then someone put a doubt into the mind
of the suckers.

Quote: Nareed

What would you call a lack of studying Bigfoot, or a lack of finding the theoretical basis of the life energy theory of disease, or a lack of studying the reproductive cycles of inter-dimensional quantized purple unicorns on the far side of the Moon?

I join you in not believing in Bigfoot, but I don't call it a lack of studying Bigfoot. I just say there is no Bigfoot. This is a truth claim and I am comfortable with it and feel I have evidence and reasons to declare definitively that there is no Big Foot or purple unicorns on the far side of the moon.

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Not really. What I claim is that people assert some kind of deity, but fail to present any tangible, falsifiable evidence for their claim. Now, if that were all you did, I wouldn't even notice. But that's not all you do. You lay moral claims on top, and demand people adhere to them. So naturally I notice. And what I notice at the most fundamental, philosophical level, is that the best you offer is an unwarranted assumption, based on millennia-old metaphysics we've clearly grown past the need for (translation, you base it all on Aristotle's very faulty metaphysics).

And that's the best. from there it degenerates into rationalizations, threats, rationalized threats, and then it really gets ugly, cognitively speaking.

So I feel comfortable in saying "There is no evidence that any inter-dimensional purple quantized unicorns are reproducing or have ever reproduced on the far side of the Moon or anywhere else, but I'm open to your evidence to the contrary. Meantime, if you think your belief entitles you to dictate anything to anyone, you're absolutely 100% wrong and have no leg to stand on."

But that's unwieldy, so I instead say "there aren't any gods." People understand that better.

If I was going to summarize what you said above I think it would be that you despise the Christian worldview, its ethic, and morality. You don't think there is evidence enough to warrant a belief in Jesus Christ as God, but are open to evidence to the contrary. However, your red line is when people take that belief and apply it to how to live their lives and then claim that this is the best way to live your life.

I wonder what you think entitles you to dictate anything to anyone? You must have some beliefs that undergird your morality and worldview. I'd be curious about what they are and what tangible, falsifiable evidence for their claim.

Quote: FrGamble

I join you in not believing in Bigfoot, but I don't call it a lack of studying Bigfoot. I just say there is no Bigfoot. This is a truth claim and I am comfortable with it and feel I have evidence and reasons to declare definitively that there is no Big Foot or purple unicorns on the far side of the moon.

We were due for a double standard. If you don't study Bigfoot, you either know all there is to know about it, or you have iron-clad proof it doesn't exist.

I'd like to see either.

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You don't think there is evidence enough to warrant a belief in Jesus Christ as God, but are open to evidence to the contrary.

You were doing so well.

No, I am sure Joshua son of Joseph wasn't a god. The mythology is too transparently derivative, with a dose of badly misunderstood Judaism on top.

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However, your red line is when people take that belief and apply it to how to live their lives and then claim that this is the best way to live your life.

Oh, no. If that was all you did, you'd simply be contemptible. You try to force others to do as you do. That makes you the enemy and you must all be defeated soundly.

The good news is we're winning. As recently as 500 years ago, you'd have had me burned at the stake for saying one millionth the things I say here. So that's progress of over six orders of magnitude. Quite an accomplishment, don't you think?

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I wonder what you think entitles you to dictate anything to anyone?

Nothing.

I mean, my willingness to pay does entitle me to, for example, dictate to a Starbucks barista to make a mocha with light milk and no whipped cream, even if they want to make a pumpkin spice latte with powdered sugar. And I sleep surprisingly well at night. But that's because there is a tacit agreement between their employer and their employer's customers to do things that way. If they insist on only making pumpkin spice drinks, they can seek work elsewhere (and never find it). So usually the interaction isn't even tense or awkward.

I disagree that telling you, or the guy in the gold vestments in Rome, "No, you do NOT have a right to dictate anything at all to anyone at all outside your death cult," constitutes dictating morality to you.

Oh, by November 8th this year, I expect I'll have an entitlement to tell a sad, odd Orange Man he cannot declare himself president. But I doubt it will be necessary to do so (others will beat me to it).

Quote: Nareed

The good news is we're winning. As recently as 500 years ago, you'd have had me burned at the stake for saying one millionth the things I say here. So that's progress of over six orders of magnitude. Quite an accomplishment, don't you think?

I think about this sometimes, how I
can speak freely and not be punished
by a church. And notice that even
with more Catholics in the world than
ever before, the religion is in sharp
decline. 90+% don't go to confession,
use birth control and rarely go to mass.
The Church has no hold over the vast
majority of Catholics anymore. Instead
of a loud commanding voice, the Vatican
is now a squeaky old man that nobody
listens to. Being a Catholic is just a novelty,
and I couldn't be happier.

Quote: Nareed

We were due for a double standard. If you don't study Bigfoot, you either know all there is to know about it, or you have iron-clad proof it doesn't exist.

I'd like to see either.

You don't need iron-clad proof to believe in something or to not believe in something. You do need evidence and reason but you don't need some kind of smoking gun. I don't believe Santa Claus lives on the North Pole but I've never been to the North Pole. I'm still good believing he doesn't live there or anywhere for that matter.

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No, I am sure Joshua son of Joseph wasn't a god. The mythology is too transparently derivative, with a dose of badly misunderstood Judaism on top.

Now when I said you didn't need iron-clad evidence to not believe in something I should have made it clear that you need something. Not just your opinion and not conclusions that do not follow from faulty premises.

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Oh, no. If that was all you did, you'd simply be contemptible. You try to force others to do as you do. That makes you the enemy and you must all be defeated soundly.

See here is where you skip over a very important step. I don't want to force anyone to do anything that they don't believe is the right thing to do. I want people to believe in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. If they don't have that belief or if they don't accept the worldview that Christianity teaches I don't want them to do anything against their conscience. I certainly don't want to force them to believe in Jesus nor would I or anyone I know force someone to do something they did not think was right.

However, I wonder if you have the same vision? You seem to want to force me to recognize that same-sex couples are the same as heterosexual couples, you want me to call you a woman, you want me to support abortion, etc. You don't seem to care that I don't share a worldview that you must have that supports these kinds of things. You are not after my conversion, you are after my submission. You want to force me to share your worldview or if not you don't care, you just want me to act the way you want me to or you and the culture will gladly burn me at the stake. At least I have the decency to try to convert you first and if you don't accept the Lord into your life we continue to debate it without me requiring anything of you. Can you please offer me the same deal.

Quote: FrGamble

I don't want to force anyone to do anything that they don't believe is the right thing to do.

That is a damnable lie and you know it. if it were up to you, all laws recognizing same-sex marriages would be struck down.

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You seem to want to force me to recognize that same-sex couples are the same as heterosexual couples

Q: What does religion have to say of any relevance about civil marriage?

A: Nothing.

You have nothing relevant to say about same-sex relationships, either, or about gender identity, or about reproductive rights. Within the walls of your death cult, you can spout as much bigotry as you care to. Outside in the real world, you're expected to respect the rights and liberties of other people. If you don't, you signal your rights and liberties ought not to be respected either.

And if the latter is the case, I've no problem with it at all.

Quote: FrGamble

You are not after my conversion, you are after my submission.

I want nothing from you, and I mean that literally.

That is to say, you, meaning the faith you represent, should be quiet regarding civil matters. What your god has to say, or what you think they have to say, about same-sex relationships, abortion, contraception, marriage--equality, etc. is as relevant to civil law as what Bigfoot has to say on the subject.

You bemoan the time the church held power. Now you have none. Act like it.

You remain free, as per the constitution, to say whatever you want. And the rest of us are free to criticize you for it. Your right to speak is sacrosanct. The content of your speech is not.