Original Sin?

Quote: Nareed

That is a damnable lie and you know it. if it were up to you, all laws recognizing same-sex marriages would be struck down.

Keep chasing your imaginary dragons. I have told you before that I am fine with civil unions and equal civil rights for same-sex couples.

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You have nothing relevant to say about same-sex relationships, either, or about gender identity, or about reproductive rights. Within the walls of your death cult, you can spout as much bigotry as you care to. Outside in the real world, you're expected to respect the rights and liberties of other people. If you don't, you signal your rights and liberties ought not to be respected either.

Just because you don't like what I have to say does not make it irrelevant. My comments about the issues you mentioned while informed by my Christian worldview are not motivated by religious reasons but simply reason itself. I'm not trying to push religion on you, I am trying to present relevant thoughts based on natural law, logic, and reason.

You seem to think everyone who has a different view than you on same-sex relationships, gender identity, or abortion is some religious fanatic that would not think the way they do without their religious influence. Thinking people who even do not believe in Christ can easily come up with the same opinions that are very relevant in the public square. It sounds like you don't want me speaking about these things just because I am religious. That is bigotry and discrimination and you should keep it to yourself.

Quote: Nareed

You remain free, as per the constitution, to say whatever you want. And the rest of us are free to criticize you for it. Your right to speak is sacrosanct. The content of your speech is not.

Exactly, instead of attacking religion what you should be attacking is the criticisms of your views. Your effort seems so far just to spew vindictive against religion in the hopes you can just write off the different arguments of people as bigotry or religiously motivated.

Quote: FrGamble

Keep chasing your imaginary dragons. I have told you before that I am fine with civil unions and equal civil rights for same-sex couples.

Only a bigot thinks that "separate but equal" is equal.

How about separate churches for Hispanic Catholics and White Catholics? Would you favor that?

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My comments about the issues you mentioned while informed by my Christian worldview are not motivated by religious reasons but simply reason itself. I'm not trying to push religion on you, I am trying to present relevant thoughts based on natural law, logic, and reason.

When you justify an opinion with "because god says so," it's ipso-facto irrelevant to civil matters. And this would be so even if any god existed. If slavery is evil because no person can claim ownership rights over another, then this applies to hypothetical divine persons as well. Might does not make right, no matter who's might we're talking about.

Just to be perfectly clear: god is not allowed an opinion in human matters because there are no gods. And any attempt to impose law based on what you think a god thinks, is forcing your religion on everyone.

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You seem to think everyone who has a different view than you on same-sex relationships, gender identity, or abortion is some religious fanatic that would not think the way they do without their religious influence.

When it comes to opposition and oppression on such maters, 99 times out of 100 there is some religious reason at the root, even when disguised as something else.

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It sounds like you don't want me speaking about these things just because I am religious. That is bigotry and discrimination and you should keep it to yourself.

I told you otherwise. You can speak all you want. If you choose to make every opinion irrelevant by bringing up god as a reason, I can't help you.

Quote: FrGamble

Exactly, instead of attacking religion what you should be attacking is the criticisms of your views. Your effort seems so far just to spew vindictive against religion in the hopes you can just write off the different arguments of people as bigotry or religiously motivated.

"Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest."

Denis Diderot.


I disagree, but it's an attractive picture sometimes.

Quote: Nareed

Only a bigot thinks that "separate but equal" is equal.

How about separate churches for Hispanic Catholics and White Catholics? Would you favor that?

Only a confused person treats different things the exact same. We have men and women restrooms, why isn't that "separate but equal"?

You question can make this very clear. The reason why we don't have separate Churches for different nationalities and races is because it makes no difference what your language or skin color is you are Catholic like everyone else. We do have separate but equal churches for those who are Catholic and those who are Protestant, why? Because there are real differences between these groups. Our gender makes a difference about who we are, our skin color does not. In the first case separate but equal makes sense (ex. different bathrooms that are equal) in the second case it does not make sense (ex. what difference exists between a black man and a white man when using the bathroom?).

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When you justify an opinion with "because god says so," it's ipso-facto irrelevant to civil matters. And this would be so even if any god existed.

I have never done what you say above and you know it. I agree with you that "because god says so" does not belong at all in the civil discussion nor in my opinion does it deserve to be in theological discussions.

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Just to be perfectly clear: god is not allowed an opinion in human matters because there are no gods. And any attempt to impose law based on what you think a god thinks, is forcing your religion on everyone.

Just to be perfectly clear: God does exist and being the author of truth He not only has an opinion but the last word. However, any attempt to impose law based on what God thinks is indeed forcing your religion on everyone. That is why God gave us a brain and why what He asks of us will always correspond with natural reason and not need any reference to the divine to support it.

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When it comes to opposition and oppression on such maters, 99 times out of 100 there is some religious reason at the root, even when disguised as something else.

The only way this would be true is if by, "even when disguised as something else" you mean disguised as reason, scientific evidence, and logic.

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I told you otherwise. You can speak all you want. If you choose to make every opinion irrelevant by bringing up god as a reason, I can't help you.

I know very well that if I bring up God as a reason it is the quickest way to make my opinion irrelevant in a secular and diverse world, and for good reason.

Quote: FrGamble

Only a confused person treats different things the exact same.

Like taking three imaginary "persons" and treating them as the same imaginary "god"? I agree. That's a high level of cognitive confusion.

Let's try and bring consistency on this, too. You claim marriage to be a Christian thing. Why, then are Christians allowed civil marriage? It can't be both, right? I propose, then, Christians only be allowed civil unions in the legal, civil realm, while marriage would be open to everyone else. Naturally they'd still have the same rights <nudge-nudge, wink-wink>.

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I have never done what you say above and you know it.

You do nothing else.

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Just to be perfectly clear: God does exist

<snort>

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and being the author of truth

LOL!

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However, any attempt to impose law based on what God thinks is indeed forcing your religion on everyone.

You know, there is no person as despicable as those who say "It's a terrible thing," and then go on doing that terrible thing anyway.

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That is why God gave us a brain and why what He asks of us will always correspond with natural reason and not need any reference to the divine to support it.

So the purpose of the brain is to rationalize what your god's commands. Good to know.

At a meeting between seven community leaders and the rabbi of the local synagogue, there is a disagreement over a motion. After much debate there is a vote and it's seven to one, the one being the rabbi.

"Perhaps I have not made my position clear," the rabbi says after the vote.

"Rabbi," replies one of the leaders, "after so much debate, I assure you there is no doubt about your position. But the vote clearly indicates we disagree. It's seven to one. The motion passes."

"Let me, then, pray that God may show you the error of your ways. If there are no objections?"

"None. Go right ahead."

The rabbi bows his head and he can be heard mumbling a prayer. Almost at once, lightning strikes the seven community leaders.

One of them manages to pull himself up, and declares "Ok. It's seven to two. The motion still passes."

Quote: Nareed

Let's try and bring consistency on this, too. You claim marriage to be a Christian thing. Why, then are Christians allowed civil marriage? It can't be both, right? I propose, then, Christians only be allowed civil unions in the legal, civil realm, while marriage would be open to everyone else. Naturally they'd still have the same rights <nudge-nudge, wink-wink>.

Let's bring consistency and accuracy as well. Marriage is not specifically a Christian thing. Marriage is a natural thing that far predates Christ. The Sacrament of Marriage is a Catholic thing. Civil Marriage is a good thing and it makes sense for the state the be in the marriage business as families are essential to not only its future, providing for new citizens, but also for its well being, forming good citizens. I would propose that we not have a religion test for civil marriage and keep the separation of Church and State.

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You do nothing else.

Just take my most recent argument criticizing your misuse of the "separate but equal" phrase. Not once did I mention God or religion.

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You know, there is no person as despicable as those who say "It's a terrible thing," and then go on doing that terrible thing anyway.

I swear to you that I do not, nor does the Church, want to impose any law on you or anyone based solely upon what God thinks or what Catholics believe. I am only interested, as should we all, with creating and supporting laws that support the common good based on reason, research, and a philosophy that views every human being at any stage of life or any state of life as infinitely valuable.

Quote: Nareed

At a meeting between seven community leaders and the rabbi of the local synagogue, there is a disagreement over a motion. After much debate there is a vote and it's seven to one, the one being the rabbi.

"Perhaps I have not made my position clear," the rabbi says after the vote.

"Rabbi," replies one of the leaders, "after so much debate, I assure you there is no doubt about your position. But the vote clearly indicates we disagree. It's seven to one. The motion passes."

"Let me, then, pray that God may show you the error of your ways. If there are no objections?"

"None. Go right ahead."

The rabbi bows his head and he can be heard mumbling a prayer. Almost at once, lightning strikes the seven community leaders.

One of them manages to pull himself up, and declares "Ok. It's seven to two. The motion still passes."

That is a great story, it is going to make its way into a homily at some point.

Quote: FrGamble

support the common good based on reason, research,

The fact that you think we swallow this
garbage is hilarious. You 'researched'
it and found Jesus really did walk on
water and pull food out of thin air?
Really?