Original Sin?

Quote: FrGamble

It's okay, I understand.

Nice try, no cigar. Does that really work on
adults? Amazing.

It is usually children who refuse to answer questions when they know they are wrong, it is children who take their toys and go home when they get frustrated.

Quote: FrGamble

It is usually children who refuse to answer questions when they know they are wrong, it is children who take their toys and go home when they get frustrated.

Again, this works with people you know?
What do they put in the water in Maryland.
Aren't you in Maryland? Or NJ?

Here's the deal about sin. Without god, sin
can't exist, there's nobody to offend. So
talking about sin is a complete waste of time.
You can't just assume god exists, like religious
people do, and then make up rules surrounding
him.

Dan Barker, the evangelist turned atheist, says it
took him years after he gave up his faith to realize
he wasn't talking to god, he was talking to himself
and pretending god was listening. Never underestimate
the power of the mind to trick itself into believing
almost anything. Better to have evidence first of
gods existence, then to jump to conclusions.

Quote: Evenbob

Here's the deal about sin. Without god, sin
can't exist, there's nobody to offend.

Okay, try looking at this the way some secular AA groups look at the "higher power". If you don't believe in God fine think who is is offended by sin. Make yourself your God, that's kind of what atheists do anyway. You personally are offended by sin. When you do something wrong you are disappointed in yourself aren't you? Think about how sin offends others or hurts the ones you love. You seem to be using your lack of belief in God as a scapegoat to avoid the entire discussion of the problems inherent to us as human beings. You don't need to believe in God to recognize the reality of sin.

Quote:

Dan Barker, the evangelist turned atheist, says it
took him years after he gave up his faith to realize
he wasn't talking to god, he was talking to himself
and pretending god was listening.

I would love to ask Dan Barker about all those times in prayer when he received some inspiration, some new idea or thought, when he was convicted of some sin, when he was encouraged to go out of his comfort zone, or when he was made to feel good about himself after prayer. How did talking to himself produce such different ideas,feelings, and actions? One would think that if all we are doing is talking to ourselves our old thoughts, our desires, our feelings, etc. would all just be reinforced.

Quote: FrGamble

If you don't believe in God fine think who is is offended by sin.

Why would I care who is offended by a concept
I don't believe in? Not my problem, it's their
time to waste.

Quote:

I would love to ask Dan Barker about all those times in prayer when he received some inspiration, some new idea or thought, when he was convicted of some sin, when he was encouraged to go out of his comfort zone,.

"I am an atheist because there is no evidence for the existence of God. That should be all that needs to be said about it: no evidence, no belief." Dan Barker

He's right, the discussion ends right there.

Quote: Evenbob

Why would I care who is offended by a concept
I don't believe in?

See this is what confuses me, now it is the concept of sin you don't believe in? I thought it was God you don't believe in and because of that you couldn't understand sin. Now it seems that you don't believe in sin in itself, even separate from God. Do you believe that human beings who want to do good and can do good still find themselves not doing so for some reason?

Quote:

"I am an atheist because there is no evidence for the existence of God. That should be all that needs to be said about it: no evidence, no belief." Dan Barker

He's right, the discussion ends right there.

He's wrong. Here is a quick incomplete list: there is something rather than nothing and this something needs a first cause and a non-contingent being. A preponderance of evidence from modern science that the universe had a beginning. A universal understanding of some God or supreme being from every culture and age of human civilization. The fact that there are objective goods and evils. Unexplained phenomenon like children who knows things about the past or people from the past. Countless documentation of ghost stories. Miracles. Events involving exorcisms. The finely-tuned and ordered universe. The personal experience of prayer from billions and billions of people. The personal experiences of God had by billions and billions of people. The unique nature of human beings. The reality of sin and I could go on and on.

Now I'm sure you can come up with explanations for some of these things and can try to write them off. However, what we are dealing with is a preponderance of evidence that would point to the very real probability of God's existence. To use the words of the recent deflate-gate, It is more probable than not that there is a God. Sure there is no smoking gun or scientific/mathematical proof. We still need faith, like we need faith to fall in love or do anything in this world. I know that atheists are always quick to point out that theirs is not a belief, but really in the face of all the evidence how could one really come to a conclusion that there is no God?!? At least allow the possibility so the discussion doesn't end.

Quote: FrGamble

Now it seems that you don't believe in sin in itself

Sigh. I have ALWAYS maintained sin doesn't
exist, why are you doing this. How many times
have I compared sin to imaginary unicorns?
How could you possibly get from our conversation
that I ever thought sin was real. I bet I've said
'sin doesn't exist' a hundred times in this thread
alone.

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He's wrong.

Nope.

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However, what we are dealing with is a preponderance of evidence .

Afraid not. What you list is not evidence. If it
were, there would be no disbelievers. No
atheists. And they are on the rise, not a decline.

Quote: Evenbob

Sigh. I have ALWAYS maintained sin doesn't
exist,

That is true, but every time you have been pressed as to why you hold that position you have said it is because you don't believe in God. When asked if you believe the world and human beings have all experienced pain, suffering, or distress you usually just dodged the question for some reason. When asked if people have a difficult time doing what is right you briefly tried to say everyone was nice and then quickly backed off that point and have remained silent. In every turn you have been defeated so you continue to hold onto your idea that there is no God and because there is no God there is no sin. Now when I asked you, for the 100th time, to think of sin without the notion of God you did not respond as usual. Usually you would repeat that you can't think of sin without God that's like asking what unicorns, blah, blah, blah. Instead you said something to the effect that you don't believe in sin, without referencing your disbelief in God. This could be either progress or a regression. Either you are finally willing to look at the reality of sin apart for the idea of offending God or you have dug in your heels further and are equating your belief about God with your belief about sin.

Quote:

Afraid not. What you list is not evidence. If it
were, there would be no disbelievers. No
atheists. And they are on the rise, not a decline.

Some of that evidence is the same evidence you say leads one to think about reincarnation?!? You do know that even in the face of evidence people can still choose not to believe? This is another example of sin and it is very common. People believe what they want to believe, not always what the evidence points to.

Quote: FrGamble

That is true, but every time you have been pressed

This isn't my first rodeo. I refuse to
get bogged down in semantic
issues to figure what the meaning
of 'is' is. To use Bill Clinton as an
example. God doesn't exist, so
sin doesn't either. Further discussion
about it is, for me, a waste of time.

Quote:

People believe what they want to believe, not always what the evidence points to.

There is no real evidence for god
or sin. Just because you call it evidence,
that doesn't make it so. We all know
what real hardcore evidence looks
like, and you have none. Sorry..