Original Sin?

Quote: FrGamble

Here is a quick incomplete list: there is something rather than nothing and this something needs a first cause and a non-contingent being. A preponderance of evidence from modern science that the universe had a beginning. A universal understanding of some God or supreme being from every culture and age of human civilization. The fact that there are objective goods and evils. Unexplained phenomenon like children who knows things about the past or people from the past. Countless documentation of ghost stories. Miracles. Events involving exorcisms. The finely-tuned and ordered universe. The personal experience of prayer from billions and billions of people. The personal experiences of God had by billions and billions of people. The unique nature of human beings. The reality of sin and I could go on and on.

Now I'm sure you can come up with explanations for some of these things and can try to write them off. However, what we are dealing with is a preponderance of evidence that would point to the very real probability of God's existence. To use the words of the recent deflate-gate, It is more probable than not that there is a God. Sure there is no smoking gun or scientific/mathematical proof. We still need faith, like we need faith to fall in love or do anything in this world. I know that atheists are always quick to point out that theirs is not a belief, but really in the face of all the evidence how could one really come to a conclusion that there is no God?!? At least allow the possibility so the discussion doesn't end.

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what we are dealing with is a preponderance of evidence that would point to the very real probability of God's existence.

For you, yes. You need to believe in god,
so everything you see is evidence. For
those of us that don't have an agenda to
fulfill, none of what you listed is evidence
of a creator god or a personal god or a
god of any kind. Why can't you just be
happy for yourself that you have found
what you're looking for.

Quote: Evenbob

For you, yes. You need to believe in god,

I don't need to believe in God, why do you say that?

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For those of us that don't have an agenda to
fulfill,

This is not an answer or helpful, it is just another dodge and excuse.

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none of what you listed is evidence

Why? What is lacking that disqualifies any of it as evidence?

Quote: FrGamble

I don't need to believe in God, why do you say that?

Because people that believe in the supernatural,
and in supernatural beings, do so because they
need or want to. It's not because there is any
evidence they exist.

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What is lacking that disqualifies any of it as evidence?

Because none of it stands up to any scientific
scrutiny. There is no test that can done again
and again and again with the same reliable
results. Take the kids who remember past
lives. The researchers beat the bushes first,
to see if it's a fraud. Then they perform the
due diligence to check out the kids story
by finding out if there was such a person
who died, and if the kids memories are in
fact real. It doesn't prove the kid had another
life, but it's pretty compelling evidence
that points in that direction. They've done
this thousands of times, the scientific
method in action.

Science can't even show that prayer works.
Every funded and unfunded study, no matter
how large, has shown prayer does nothing
at all except make those doing the praying
feel better. Start proving there is a god with
the methods we use to prove everything
else, and people will pay attention.

Quote: Evenbob

Because people that believe in the supernatural,
and in supernatural beings, do so because they
need or want to. It's not because there is any
evidence they exist.

Not true. Would that be fair to say to those who do not believe in the supernatural and in supernatural beings?

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Because none of it stands up to any scientific
scrutiny. There is no test that can done again
and again and again with the same reliable
results.

Some of the things I mentioned are scientific discoveries.

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Take the kids who remember past
lives. The researchers beat the bushes first,
to see if it's a fraud. Then they perform the
due diligence to check out the kids story
by finding out if there was such a person
who died, and if the kids memories are in
fact real. It doesn't prove the kid had another
life, but it's pretty compelling evidence
that points in that direction. They've done
this thousands of times, the scientific
method in action.

Okay so this piece of evidence for the supernatural and perhaps God you do accept. Notice that you try and fit this into the scientific method but it is not. Finding thousands (an exaggeration) of instances of something and researching it to make sure it is not fake is not the scientific method. The scientific method would lead to being able to predict who is going to have these experiences and to recreate them reliably in someone. What you are describing above is more of discovering something amazing and doing your due diligence to make sure it is not fake. You really are no closer to understanding the phenomenon after your fact checking then when you first began, you are just establishing that it is not explainable by other ways besides the supernatural. By the way this same process has been done for literally thousands of miracles and also many, many strange occurrences during exorcisms. Why do you accept the supernatural nature of these experiences with the kids and not miracles or exorcisms or ghost stories?

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Start proving there is a god with
the methods we use to prove everything
else, and people will pay attention.

You've got a bad case of empiricism too. We absolutely do not use the scientific method to prove everything else?!? This is crazy talk. In fact the most important things we can never subject to this method. Who to marry, what vocation to live, who to vote for, etc.? These things are proved to us not through some scientific method, heck the scientific method itself is a philosophical idea. The silly notion that all knowledge comes from science is also not testable. Finally, I wonder what test did you perform to determine in your mind that there was no God? Maybe if you start proving there is no God with the scientific method I will pay attention.

Quote: FrGamble

Not true. Would that be fair to say to those who do not believe in the supernatural and in supernatural beings?

Would what be fair? What do you mean.

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Why do you accept the supernatural nature of these experiences with the kids

How do you get reincarnation is 'supernatural'?
It's as natural as birth and dying, or breathing
and eating.

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and not miracles or exorcisms or ghost stories?

Ghosts may very well be a persons spirit
in between lives. But miracles and exorcisms,
that's another story. According to the definition,
my TV and microwave are miracles, and
science has a lot to say about exorcism, you
should bring yourself out of the Dark Ages
one day and read the truth about it.

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These things are proved to us not through some scientific method, .

Why would they be, they're just opinions
and desires. A lot of people agree that
the real test for god is prayer. It's talked
about a lot in the NT and Christians do it
and talk about it all the time. Jesus makes
specific promises in the Bible about how
prayer is supposed to work. Jesus says in
many different places that he and God will
answer your prayers.

Didn't Jesus say: 'Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.'

There are a bunch of statements like that in
the NT. The fact that it's blatantly untrue has
a big effect on atheists. We all have Christian
friends who pray all the time. Are their prayers
answered most of the time, as promised? Are
any of them answered? A few here and there,
usually not even within the standard deviation,
which is pretty pitiful.

Christians are like the big mouthed braggart
who can't put his money where his mouth is.
They brag brag brag about god and Jesus, yet
when they do the things the NT instructs them
to do, all they get is a big fat nothing most of
the time.

They have 101 excuses for why prayer doesn't
work like it's supposed to, we've heard them all.
A prayer is just a glorified wish, nothing more.
And it works about as well as a wish does.

You want to show proof of god? Show prayer works
every time it's tried like promised. Heck, even half
the time would be a miracle.

Quote: Evenbob

How do you get reincarnation is 'supernatural'?
It's as natural as birth and dying, or breathing
and eating.

Dying and then coming back as another person over and over again is about as far away from natural as you can get.

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Ghosts may very well be a persons spirit
in between lives. But miracles and exorcisms,
that's another story. According to the definition,
my TV and microwave are miracles, and
science has a lot to say about exorcism, you
should bring yourself out of the Dark Ages
one day and read the truth about it.

I'm always intrigued by your inconsistency. Ghosts you believe in, but the supernatural not. Anyway it looks like you have some reading to do, about the recorded events and studies down on exorcism. There have been some very good books written recently about it and what happens. People speaking in languages they have not, nor could have learned, knowing things from people's past or even the future that they have no way of knowing, strange marks appearing on bodies and superhuman strength. Actually, maybe the explanation is that the person was a demon in a previous life that would make perfect sense ;)

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You want to show proof of god? Show prayer works
every time it's tried like promised. Heck, even half
the time would be a miracle.

I can see how if you really thought prayer was equivalent to rubbing a genie's lamp you would be disappointed. I will even say many Christians and other religions might hold that view. However, a more mature view of prayer is to enter into a relationship with God that billions and billions of people have experienced as real and life giving.

Quote: FrGamble

Dying and then coming back as another person over and over again is about as far away from natural as you can get.

How do you figure? Now I'm reading that
kids doctors say at least 50% of little kids
have bits of memory that we mostly ignore
because it makes no sense. If true, and good
evidence points that way, it's as natural as
anything else we do.

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I'm always intrigued by your inconsistency. Ghosts you believe in, but the supernatural not.

I've never considered ghosts supernatural. There's
too many reports of them, them seem perfectly
natural.

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I can see how if you really thought prayer was equivalent to rubbing a genie's lamp you would be disappointed.

It's not any different. Prayer is superstition at it's
finest.

Superstition: 'An irrational belief that an object, action,
or circumstance not logically related to a course of
events influences its outcome.'

This describes prayer perfectly. I've watched my
wife and her sisters praying for decades. It's just
glorified wishing. Jesus tells them in the NT that
they can pray for anything, and boy do they ever.
Some come true, the vast majority never do, just
like all superstitious wishes.

You're not doing a very good job of debunking my list of evidence, in fact you seem to be agreeing that some of the items are the real deal. Thanks for that. Thanks also for the lesson on prayer, I'm glad you feel comfortable defining prayer for me. Remind me again how often you pray?

Quote: FrGamble

You're not doing a very good job of debunking my list of evidence

I said none of it stands up scientific scrutiny.
How could I be any clearer.

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I'm glad you feel comfortable defining prayer for me.

OK, you tell me. Are your prayers answered
in the way Jesus said they would be?

"If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer." Matthew 21:21
"Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." Mark 11:24:
"You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it." John 14:14
"Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven"Matthew 18:19
"And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up."James 5:15

He seems pretty clear, is this how prayer
works in reality? Is this what you get
when you pray? Show me the error in my
about how prayer works.