Original Sin?

Quote: Evenbob

I said none of it stands up scientific scrutiny.
How could I be any clearer.

First of all you haven't explained why scientific scrutiny is the appropriate test to the evidence we use to believe in things. Secondly, you haven't dealt with the actual scientific evidence that points to a beginning of our universe. Thirdly, you have agreed that certain evidence I provided are acceptable to you, such as children who have unexplained knowledge (and by extension the same experience in exorcisms) and ghosts.

Quote:

Show me the error in my
about how prayer works.

I think it might be appropriate to quote from the Catechism to answer this:

THE BATTLE OF PRAYER

2725 Prayer is both a gift of grace and a determined response on our part. It always presupposes effort. The great figures of prayer of the Old Covenant before Christ, as well as the Mother of God, the saints, and he himself, all teach us this: prayer is a battle. Against whom? Against ourselves and against the wiles of the tempter who does all he can to turn man away from prayer, away from union with God. We pray as we live, because we live as we pray. If we do not want to act habitually according to the Spirit of Christ, neither can we pray habitually in his name. The “spiritual battle” of the Christian’s new life is inseparable from the battle of prayer. (2612, 409, 2015)
I. Objections to Prayer

2726 In the battle of prayer, we must face in ourselves and around us erroneous notions of prayer. Some people view prayer as a simple psychological activity, others as an effort of concentration to reach a mental void. Still others reduce prayer to ritual words and postures. Many Christians unconsciously regard prayer as an occupation that is incompatible with all the other things they have to do: they “don’t have the time.” Those who seek God by prayer are quickly discouraged because they do not know that prayer comes also from the Holy Spirit and not from themselves alone. (2710)

2727 We must also face the fact that certain attitudes deriving from the mentality of “this present world” can penetrate our lives if we are not vigilant. For example, some would have it that only that is true which can be verified by reason and science; yet prayer is a mystery that overflows both our conscious and unconscious lives. Others overly prize production and profit; thus prayer, being unproductive, is useless. Still others exalt sensuality and comfort as the criteria of the true, the good, and the beautiful; whereas prayer, the “love of beauty” (philokalia), is caught up in the glory of the living and true God. Finally, some see prayer as a flight from the world in reaction against activism; but in fact, Christian prayer is neither an escape from reality nor a divorce from life. (37, 2500)

2728 Finally, our battle has to confront what we experience as failure in prayer: discouragement during periods of dryness; sadness that, because we have “great possessions,”15 we have not given all to the Lord; disappointment over not being heard according to our own will; wounded pride, stiffened by the indignity that is ours as sinners; our resistance to the idea that prayer is a free and unmerited gift; and so forth. The conclusion is always the same: what good does it do to pray? To overcome these obstacles, we must battle to gain humility, trust, and perseverance.

Quote: FrGamble

In the battle of prayer, we must face in ourselves and around us erroneous notions of prayer. .

Wow, what a lot of words just to explain
why prayer doesn't work as Jesus said
it was supposed to. That the results of
prayer have been proven to be exactly
the same as if you had never prayed at
all.

Prayer is the one thing that should prove
beyond doubt that your god is alive and
well. And you can't produce diddly squat
with it. My wife and sisters can't produce
diddly either. But it feels good when they
pray, so they do it a lot. Just like meditating
feels good, or chanting OHMMMMM feels
good.

Just pray for a flipped coin to turn up heads
a dozen times in a row and I'd be a believer.
But god is imaginary, that won't happen.
Not when you want it to, anyway.

Quote: Evenbob

Wow, what a lot of words just to explain
why prayer doesn't work as Jesus said
it was supposed to.

Check this out from the quote above about erroneous views of prayer and see if it sounds familiar:

"For example, some would have it that only that is true which can be verified by reason and science; yet prayer is a mystery that overflows both our conscious and unconscious lives. Others overly prize production and profit; thus prayer, being unproductive, is useless."

Quote:

Prayer is the one thing that should prove
beyond doubt that your god is alive and
well.

In many ways it does. Try establishing a life of prayer and you will understand. But first steps first, you should start by coming to believe in God before you can intellegently speak about what prayer is and what it does for the life of a believer and our world.

Quote:

Just pray for a flipped coin to turn up heads
a dozen times in a row and I'd be a believer.
But god is imaginary, that won't happen.
Not when you want it to, anyway.

Without even knowing it you are pretty much quoting the devil in one of his temptations to Jesus, you should check out Jesus' answer it may be enlightening for you. Mt. 4:5-7

Quote: FrGamble

"For example, some would have it that only that is true which can be verified by reason and science; yet prayer is a mystery that overflows both our conscious and unconscious lives. Others overly prize production and profit; thus prayer, being unproductive, is useless."

That's excuse #104 in the book 'Reasons
Prayer Doesn't Really Work.' Christian
apologists have more reasons than Carter
has pills about why what Jesus says about praying
won't work.

Quote:

In many ways it does.

What ways? None that anybody can see or
prove. Prayer has been proven again and
again to be useless. It's the one and only
thing you can use to prove god is real
and it fails more often than not. It's the
one thing all Christians have in common,
asking god to do things for them. Kind
of ironic, isn't it.

I'm convinced any explanation I give you about the power, beauty, and purpose of prayer will just be labeled an excuse by you. There is much you don't understand about it and I recognize that. You will notice in my list of evidence, which you still have yet to really address, I mentioned only the experience of prayer. You don't get that because you see prayer as just asking God to do things, as someone who doesn't pray I can understand why you think that. Any other issues or evidence you want to address or would you like to keep bashing your take on prayer and accept the others as real evidence?

Quote: FrGamble

I'm convinced any explanation I give you about the power, beauty, and purpose of prayer

Prayer is done by all religions, even
the Indians prayed. It makes people
feel good, it makes them feel part
of something bigger than themselves.
Just don't label that something your
own personal creator god, here to do
you favors and save you from something.

Don't let your hubris get tripped up by
your narcissism, in other words..

Quote: Evenbob

Prayer is done by all religions, even
the Indians prayed. It makes people
feel good, it makes them feel part
of something bigger than themselves.
Just don't label that something your
own personal creator god, here to do
you favors and save you from something.

Don't let your hubris get tripped up by
your narcissism, in other words..

Good advice and you show here a much better understanding of the mystery of prayer.

Quote: FrGamble

Good advice and you show here a much better understanding of the mystery of prayer.

Just don't tell me prayer is about getting
what you want, because it's obviously
not. And it's obviously what most Christians
think it's for. They pray for god to help
them get the mustard stain out of their
shirt, and for their team to win. They
pray for a raise at work and for the slots
to be kind in Vegas. I'm also sure you don't
try and convince them not to do this, you'd
lose your license. And it goes against what
Jesus taught.

You would be proud of me I give talks all the time about the true nature of prayer and not treating God as a genie.

Quote: FrGamble

You would be proud of me I give talks all the time about the true nature of prayer and not treating God as a genie.

Yet Jesus asks to be treated like a genie
in scripture. You know he does. Spin it
any way you like, that's what 'they' said
he said. Of course he never said it at
all, it would be absurd. It was added
later to get converts. Surely you see that.

And it works. My wife and her sisters pray
for lines to be short at the market and all
the lights to be green on the way.