Original Sin?

May 5th, 2015 at 7:35:23 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: Evenbob
Of course I have an answer, but why waste
time typing it,


Type away it will at least keep the discussion going and call my bluff that I don't think you really have an answer at all, except of course in coming to grips with the reality of sin.



Quote:
What are these invisible shackles? I have no
idea what you mean.


You can very easily become a slave to your own selfishness and desires and mistake this for freedom.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
May 5th, 2015 at 8:49:44 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
You can very easily become a slave to your own selfishness and desires and mistake this for freedom.


And you can just as easily not
become a slave to them. Tons
of good Christians are complete
slaves to their selfish desires,
rehabs are full of them. There
are so many Christian men
addicted to porn that they have
special rehabs just for them.

Religion seems to be no deterrent
at all for keeping people away
all the desires people want to wallow
in.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
May 6th, 2015 at 4:25:51 AM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: Evenbob

Religion seems to be no deterrent
at all for keeping people away
all the desires people want to wallow
in.


You need to rethink this statement and try again.

By the way still no answer?
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
May 6th, 2015 at 11:44:07 AM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
You need to rethink this statement and try again.


I was pretty clear. With or without religion,
people will still wallow in overdoing their
desires if they want to. We've had just
as many wars with religion than without.
Probably more.

Quote:
By the way still no answer?


Why bother. You already gave the retort
I said you would give. I'm always wrong.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
May 6th, 2015 at 1:56:56 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: Evenbob
I was pretty clear. With or without religion,
people will still wallow in overdoing their
desires if they want to.


That is much more nuanced than what you said earlier. Surely even you must acknowledge the role religion plays in helping people not to overdo their desires.

Quote:
We've had just
as many wars with religion than without.
Probably more.


The devastation that wars without religion have wrought on the human race cannot even be compared with those so called religious wars. The 20th century was the bloodiest century ever and more people died at the hands of officially atheistic regimes than all the religious wars combined. Maybe this harkens back to the point above that religion has a way of helping people not to overdo things.


Quote:
Why bother. You already gave the retort
I said you would give. I'm always wrong.


I promise I won't say you are wrong. I would be curious to hear another explanation besides sin that makes sense.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
May 6th, 2015 at 2:18:35 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
Surely even you must acknowledge the role religion plays in helping people not to overdo their desires.


Surely you must acknowledge it works as
often as it fails.

Quote:
more people died at the hands of officially atheistic regimes


But were the people and soldiers in those
countries atheists just because the regime
said it was? Hell no, they were 95% god
fearing Christians who were prevented
from going to church. The same Christians
who fought war after war all thru Europe for
over a thousand years. Just slapping a new
name on them doesn't change their beliefs
or the way they were raised.

Quote:
I would be curious to hear another explanation besides sin that makes sense.


As to why we struggle to improve ourselves and
our condition of life? People get tired of living in
squalor, and working from dawn till dusk. They
get tired of the gov't stealing half their crops
and livestock for 'taxes'. So they gradually pull
themselves out of poverty and work together
to make society run better. It has nothing to do
with sin, which doesn't exist. It's about eating better,
living longer and in better circumstances. How
you get sin out of it is a mystery, sin has nothing
to do with anything. How could it.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
May 6th, 2015 at 2:32:08 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: Evenbob
Surely you must acknowledge it works as
often as it fails.


I absolutely deny this.



Quote:
Hell no, they were 95% god
fearing Christians who were prevented
from going to church.


There was a hell of a lot more than this. They were brainwashed, bullied, and cajoled to not believe in God. God was removed from the government, you were ridiculed for your faith, ostracized, atheism was taught in the schools and removed from secular culture. Those who persisted in their faith and resisted the brainwashed were sent away or killed.



Quote:
As to why we struggle to improve ourselves and
our condition of life?


Specifically the question was why we find it so hard to improve ourselves? As you show persuasively we all want to improve and make society better, but why is it such hard work involving staggering failures, blood, sweat, and tears? Why is something we want to do and know how to do, namely becoming the person we want to be, such a struggle at times for us?
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
May 6th, 2015 at 3:08:24 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble

There was a hell of a lot more than this. They were brainwashed, bullied, and cajoled to not believe in God.


It takes generations for this to take
hold. Hitler didn't have time to change
anybody's mind, he was in power for only
12 years. By the late 30's Russia had only
been Communist for 20 years, the vast
majority of people were still Russian
Orthodox, with a few hundred active
churches left. The Russian people never
were atheists. After the war 22,000 churches
were active, and even after Kruschev started
closing them, there were still thousands
left open. To say the German and Russian
soldiers were atheist is ridiculous.

Quote:
Specifically the question was why we find it so hard to improve ourselves?


You ever try and invent something when most
of the work hasn't been done by somebody
else? The inventor of the mouse trap had to
do it from scratch. First he had to realize he
needed a trap, how long did that take. Why do
you think any of that would be easy. Or that
it has anything to do with offending a god.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
May 6th, 2015 at 7:09:27 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: Evenbob
It takes generations for this to take
hold. Hitler didn't have time to change
anybody's mind,


I think you are greatly underestimating the power of fear, violent oppression, propaganda, and ridicule.



Quote:
You ever try and invent something when most
of the work hasn't been done by somebody
else? The inventor of the mouse trap had to
do it from scratch. First he had to realize he
needed a trap, how long did that take. Why do
you think any of that would be easy. Or that
it has anything to do with offending a god.


Not quite clear about what you just spoke. The question is why is it difficult to do the right thing? We don't have to invent the notion that we should tell the truth, we know that already. Why do you think that doing something we know we should and that we know will be good for us would be difficult?
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
May 6th, 2015 at 8:03:17 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
I think you are greatly underestimating the power of fear, violent oppression, propaganda, and ridicule.


It takes generations to get rid of what
took generations to instill. You think
some oppression and ridicule for a
short 12 years really made people
forget god and Jesus? What a weak
religion it is if that was the case.

In Russia, it never really left. There were
always hundreds and thousands of
Orthodox churches in the country.
You don't turn people into atheists
that quickly. They've been brainwashed
for too many centuries.

Quote:
Why do you think that doing something we know we should and that we know will be good for us would be difficult?


I'm totally confused now. You mean like eating a
whole chocolate cake when we know we shouldn't?
I don't care, eat the cake if you want. Or don't. I'm
not understanding the question.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.