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Original Sin?
| May 3rd, 2015 at 12:55:57 PM permalink | |
| Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25011 |
Because in the context of religion, that is the ONLY definition, there is no other. Jesus didn't die on the cross in your belief system to save you from a boo-boo you did at the country club. He died to save you from offending god with your sinning.
It is a private club for sure. You reject all other religions as being false. You only allow members into the inner sanctum, and you have rituals in place that are only allowed to be done by accepted members. The only thing you're missing is a secret handshake, but a lot of Catholic men's organizations had those, didn't they.
But my father isn't god, not even close. He really is like me in almost every way, he even contributed to making me. And if I hurt or offend him, he doesn't relegate me to hell forever. He forgives me and understands. You make up a god and give him human attributes, don't you see how needy and silly that is? But you and others seem to want the constant father figure in your lives, from cradle to grave. Even if you have to make one up. You even call his spokesmen on earth 'father', that's how deep the need goes for the constant parental figure. If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |
| May 3rd, 2015 at 1:25:29 PM permalink | |
| FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
Okay I've repeatedly asked you to think outside of the box of religion, but since you are unwilling to do that let's talk about why you are wrong even in the context of religion. God came to set us free from sin, not because it offends or hurts Him - He's a big God He can handle it. God wants to set us free because sin hurts us, makes us feel shame and guilt. Despite your incessant pleas to the contrary, Christ came to free us from guilt not pour it on. Again applying this analogy to an earthly father might help you to understand it better. Does your father want you to stop sinning only because it frustrates him or hurts him? Of course not, a loving father wants to free you from your sins so that you can be who you were made to be, so you can live up to your God-given potential. So you see your argument fails even when trying to strictly define sin in a religious context. It is not so important to Jesus that your sins offend Him. What He is most concerned with is that your sins hurt you and society and our world it is that pain that He came to take away.
WRONG. Many religions have sparks of truth that lead towards the one true God. The truth of God subsists in the Catholic Church, it is not equivalent to it.
Good, so you do understand the concept of Our Heavenly Father.
No one made up God, God made us up and gave us human attributes. We naturally look to our creator who made us in His image and likeness and see our best attributes as a glimpse or reflection of the one who made us. “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
| May 3rd, 2015 at 1:44:46 PM permalink | |
| Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25011 |
Sin doesn't exist, and you want me to look at something that doesn't exist in a different context? You want me to envision the unicorn without it's horn and call it a zebra instead. There is no purpose to an exercise like that, except to confuse the issue.
Jesus died 2000 years ago, he's not concerned about anything. Unless he was reincarnated, then he's definitely not concerned about who's sinning and who isn't. Sin and savior are all part of same fantasy, there is not a shred of evidence for either. That's what fantasies are all about..
Yet there is no evidence of this huge thing you claim happened. If there were, there would be no atheists. If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |
| May 3rd, 2015 at 2:06:36 PM permalink | |
| Dalex64 Member since: Mar 8, 2014 Threads: 3 Posts: 3687 |
I was just wondering if you thought love could exist without being defined, and if once defined only people who believed in the definition could feel it. "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan |
| May 3rd, 2015 at 2:08:12 PM permalink | |
| FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
No, I want you to see that sin does exist. Your argument so far has been that sin is ONLY defined in religion as an offense to God. I tired unsuccessfully to say that sin can be understood in a secular sense. You refused to accept that and insist that its definition is religious. Okay, so then I tired to show that even your religious definition of sin was off. Sin is a concern for God, not because it hurts Him in some mysterious way, but rather because it hurts us who are loved by God. You have already said multiple times that there is evidence that sin hurts us. You have said that if you lie or cheat it comes around and hurts you reputation. In another post you mentioned that those who do evil live miserable lives. Therefore there is evidence that our regrettable mistakes hurt us and our society. In a religious context that is the motivation for God wanting to free us from such sin.
This doesn't follow logically. There are plenty of people who refuse to believe something even when they are shown evidence or scientific proof that they are wrong. They can't and won't believe it because it doesn't fit their worldview or what makes them comfortable. They have strong negative feelings or experiences towards what they are asked to believe in and are compelled to reject it. I think that this is often the case with atheists. It is comfortable and nice to believe that there is no higher power, nothing supernatural, nothing above myself. This means the demands I place on myself are my own and nobody can trump my judgement or judge me because I make up the rules for myself. It is a very tempting idea for us as humans, in fact it is the very line of reasoning that the devil used to coax us into committing the Original Sin. “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
| May 3rd, 2015 at 2:19:14 PM permalink | |
| Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25011 |
How can you even define it at all. It's never the same. The love I feel for my dog isn't the same as what I feel for my wife, nor is it the same as anybody elses. If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |
| May 3rd, 2015 at 2:30:31 PM permalink | |
| Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25011 | double If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |
| May 3rd, 2015 at 3:38:18 PM permalink | |
| Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25011 |
And since god is fiction, offending him is fiction. Somewhere along the way you got the notion that two negatives can add up to a positive. They can't. You're not crazy, but you're very much like the person in the institution trying to make the doctor believe you have secret powers because you're from another planet, and getting upset that you can't make him see how right you are. And blaming the doctor for the one being off his rocker.
I have NEVER said that and you know it. I have never in my life used the word sin like it really existed. It's not even part of my vocabulary, I never think about it. Maybe you twisted things around to make it look like I said it, but I never did and never will.
That's not the case here. You have given zero evidence that god or sin exist, outside of your opinions on the subject. Your argument always comes down to 'look at all the other people who believe it, it must be true'. To which I say, huge numbers of people have believed legions of untrue things, so what. If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |
| May 3rd, 2015 at 7:08:53 PM permalink | |
| FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 | Okay, so sin because for some unknown reason you don't believe in God and for even stranger reasons you will not accept any other definition, does not offend this God you do not believe in. I get it. However, sin or mistakes or whatever term you want to use to describe the fact that we all struggle with being the person we want to be does indeed harm us. When we do evil it does hurt ourselves and society, we can agree on that if we cannot agree on the word used to define this reality. “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
| May 3rd, 2015 at 7:22:16 PM permalink | |
| Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25011 |
How so? I was taught that struggle to be who you want was rewarding, that it's the only way achieve your goal. Nothing worthwhile is given to us, we have to struggle to get it. You were taught that's harmful? Somebody fed you the wrong info, dude. If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |