Original Sin?

Quote: FrGamble

It is absolutely not a fact..

People do drugs because life is boring.
They read fiction because their lives
are boring. They watch TV and movies
for the same reason. Even loving Jesus
and hoping for a front seat in heaven
is boring.

You are boring.

Quote: Evenbob

People do drugs because life is boring.
They read fiction because their lives
are boring. They watch TV and movies
for the same reason. Even loving Jesus
and hoping for a front seat in heaven
is boring.

People do not do drugs because life is boring, they do them because life is hard. Being bored is not the only reason people read books or watch TV and movies. And loving Jesus and longing for Heaven is what makes life an adventure.

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You are boring.

I'm sorry you feel that way, I thought our little debates would bring a little spark of excitement in your life.

One of the best definitions of sin I've seen.

Does sin exist?

"No, because it needs to be defined. And, once it is defined, it applies only to the people who believe in the definition. It does not apply to people who don't."

Exactly! This is why the concept of sin is
so hard to teach other cultures who don't
have this kind of concept in their vocabulary.
It doesn't exist outside of the definition.
You can't can't see it, you can't taste it, you
can't hear it. It's just an idea.

You think it's real because you believe the
definition. You can't show evidence it even
exists, let alone prove it does. So it's taken
as a given, it exists without proof or evidence,
lets just move on to what we do about sin.

But you can't just 'move on'. You hit a huge
dead end, you can't just ignore it. But that's
what religion does. A theology based on sin
is nothing but a distraction, something to waste
your time on.

Sin applies to every single human being. We all struggle with doing what we know is right and with the obvious gap between who we want to be and who we are. Every culture, every people, every religion, every philosophy of life that has ever existed has had to deal with this essential question of sin. We do the things we know we shouldn't and we don't do the things we know we should - we commit regrettable actions and omissions. How we reconcile and understand this dilemma is important and needs to be discussed.

I know you will make a kneejerk reaction and say that sin is only wrapped up in religion and is solely a religious term, but you would be wrong. Outside of a belief in God or a higher power or anything we all still face and experience the reality of sin. It exists for everyone even when you try to understandably close your eyes and mouth and ears to the truth.

Let's take your recent interest in reincarnation as an example. You can't see it, taste it, or hear it. You believe that there is evidence that points to its existence. The evidence of course doesn't prove it but a kid who knows things about a long dead airplane pilot that there is no explanation for is good enough evidence for you to at least entertain the possibility of reincarnation.

Do you really think there is no evidence for sin in our world today? Do you really think that even if we just look at our own lives, much less the news all around us we would not find ample evidence that we both have and will make decisions that we know are wrong and that we regret? Of course there is too much evidence, but you can't just 'move on' and admit that sin, outside of any religious connotation, exists. That is what your closed mind does. It refuses to admit you are wrong, that again is evidence of sin.

Quote: FrGamble

Sin applies to every single human being. We all struggle with doing what we know is right and with the obvious gap between

But that isn't sin. You won't find that definition
anywhere. Sin is a direct offense against god,
nothing less. You make it sound like it's some
guy wringing his hands over what tie to wear
to work. You can't change the definition of sin
just to make that square peg fit in the round
hole better.

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Let's take your recent interest in reincarnation as an example. You can't see it, taste it, or hear it. You believe that there is evidence that points to its existence.

My interest isn't recent. I was first introduced
to the concept in 1969 when reading the talks
of Krishnamurti. I learned much more when I
joined the Self Realization Fellowship in 1971,
which was founded by Parmahansa Yogananda.
His book 'Autobiography of a Yogi' was published
in 1946. When I read it in 1970, it blew me away.
I stayed at the retreat Song of the Morning ranch
in upper MI several times and studied yoga with
other students. So no, reincarnation is not a
recent interest, it's a 45 year old interest.

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Do you really think there is no evidence for sin in our world today? .

No, none. For us to offend a god with our
actions or thoughts, if there was a god, is
the ultimate in hubris. It's narcissism run amok.
It's elevating yourself to godhood, it's putting
yourself on the same level as a god. Surely you
see that.

Why are you so scared of recognizing the secular notion of sin? The obvious fact is that humanity is broken yet we strive to be better. Let's leave the offense to God part out because you obviously don't believe in God.

By the way your interpretation of offending God is way off base. You are too focused on human beings and our supposed power to offend God. It is you who are being narcissist. What would help you to understand this is not that we are putting ourselves on the same level as God, but that God has put Himself on the same level of us. It is humility run amok. You have it absolutely backwards. Surely you see that?!?

Quote: EvenBob

Does sin exist?

"No, because it needs to be defined. And, once it is defined, it applies only to the people who believe in the definition. It does not apply to people who don't."

Does love exist?

Quote: Dalex64

Does love exist?

Love: a feeling of blah blah blah. Pick one.

Are you asking if feelings exist? In what
context? Can they be shown to exist outside
of the moment we feel them? Are they
the same for everybody? Are they even the
same for two different people.

Quote: FrGamble

Let's leave the offense to God part out because you obviously don't believe in God.

That's like leaving the leaving the mayo
out of the egg salad. Sin is first and foremost
an offense against god. When you sin, you
are offending god, that's the definition of
the word. Without god there is no sin. Find
evidence of gods existence first, then worry
about offending him. Your entire religion
is built on assumptions, not evidence.

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is not that we are putting ourselves on the same level as God, but that God has put Himself on the same level of us.

It's the SAME THING! You invent a god and then
bring him down to your level. He made you in
his own image, you imagine. He loves you and
cares about you and even has a human son who
does things for you. He loves you so much he's
even easily offended by your actions. You don't
see the hubris here, the blatant narcissism?

This is what a selfish narcissistic child does, invents
secret friends who care about him. This is what
the childlike ancients did, to make them feel better
about everything they didn't understand. Then they
started believing their own foolish made up stories
and look where that got us. People dieing in the
name of their imaginations.

Quote: Evenbob

Sin is first and foremost
an offense against god.

Why do you, an atheist, keep saying this? Is there no other definition of sin that you accept? What about the Oxford dictionary definition 1.1? I feel like you are purposely refusing to stretch your definition of sin because you are clinging to God in this case in a desperate attempt to not acknowledge that humanity feels acutely the reality of sin, even if they don't believe in God.

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He made you in
his own image, you imagine. He loves you and
cares about you and even has a human son who
does things for you. He loves you so much he's
even easily offended by your actions. You don't
see the hubris here, the blatant narcissism?

I've pointed this out to you many times and yet you insist on trying to make the Christian faith seem like a clique or private club, which would leave it open to some type of narcissism. However every time you say "you" in the above paragraph it should really say "us". There is no hubris or narcissism when God's love is not just for a select few or for those who believe, but for all people. I've described this to you many times and I hope you understand it this time.

You know another weakness in your argument that somehow offending God is making ourselves equal to or even superior to God is to think of your parents. If your father loves you very much he will be hurt by your transgressions and mistakes. This does not somehow make you equal or superior to your father. Instead it is a reflection of how much your father loves you. If your father was not offended by your sins or mistakes the conclusion one would draw is that your father did not love you very much. Therefore, sin offending God has nothing to do with exalting ourselves but rather everything to do with God loving us.