Original Sin?

Quote: Evenbob

We call
really big mistakes 'crimes' and have a
judicial system to deal with those,

Okay lets use the word crime. There are some mistakes that are really big and therefore would fit your definition of a crime, but we don't use the judicial system to deal with. Let's say you back stabbed someone at work or went back on your word on something that others were depending on you for or committed adultery. These crimes won't send you to jail but they cause you and others pain and are regrettable. They shouldn't be obsessed over nor should they just be glossed over as nothing happened. They demand reconciliation and healing for all involved. Would you agree with this?

Quote:

It's all vainglorious nonsense
to me.

I must admit this is the first time I have ever heard someone accuse those who acknowledge they are sinners of being vainglorious. The problem with your argument is that Christians don't think that God cares only about their tiniest thought or action, but that He cares about everyone the same. So it is NOT "inordinate pride in oneself" at all. Christians don't think they individually are any more important than any other person, in fact in a world that is very self-centered I would recommend with hanging out with Christians a lot because they should treat you as equal or even more important than themselves.

Quote:

Because sin doesn't exist, there are no sinful
actions.

Okay, where does every crime begin?

Quote: FrGamble

Let's say you back stabbed someone at work or went back on your word

Oh well, it will probably come back to you
as a blemish on your reputation or revenge
by the person you wronged. If you're a
sensitive person, you will learn to curtail
that kind of behavior. Or not. God and sin
have nothing to do with it, they don't exist.

Quote:

I must admit this is the first time I have ever heard someone accuse those who acknowledge they are sinners of being vainglorious. The problem with your argument is that Christians don't think that God cares only about their tiniest thought or action,

Just listen to them, they're always talking
in a bragging fashion about what horrible
sinners they used to be, like they're proud of
it. They love to give their 'testimony' of the
lives they lived before they started going
to church. You get to hear every excruciating
detail of just how awful they were. They say
they're still horrible sinners, but god has taken
care of that. They do all this in a bragging
voice, never is it quiet or submissive. They
love the attention, it's vainglorious. Makes me
want to gag.

You hear all the time from former Christians
that the pressure of god watching them and
monitoring their every thought is a main
reason for quitting the religion. If god is the
be-all end-all, of course he would know your
thoughts. If he existed.

Quote:

Okay, where does every crime begin?

Crime is defined by the law, not by actions.
We all agree what crimes are, it's not readily
apparent in nature. That's why Moses produced
the commandments, because it wasn't apparent.
Killing someone 100 times in your thoughts
is meaningless unless you act on it.

Quote: Evenbob

God and sin
have nothing to do with it,

There you go bringing up God and sin again. We are talking about the human condition of dealing with crimes we commit that cause us to feel regret whether or not we get caught or will have to suffer some possible consequence. It is an experience common to us all is it not? We all acutely feel and know we are not perfect. We all deal with this in different ways, but we all deal with this common condition of having committed regrettable crimes.

You know what is really a crime, and I feel bad about this, is that we have seemingly derailed this thread. We had some interesting questions from Dalex and Face about can moral truths change, etc. and I haven't heard from them in a few days.

Quote:

They love the attention, it's vainglorious. Makes me
want to gag.

I've said this before you not only need to get new sources of information, but you have to meet some new Christian friends. It might make you want to gag, but as I mentioned in the previous post it does not fit the definition you gave of vainglorious because it is not inordinate pride in oneself. If anything it is inordinate loathing of oneself.

Quote:

Killing someone 100 times in your thoughts
is meaningless unless you act on it.

If you never kill anyone in your thoughts what are the chances that you will ever do so? If you think about killing someone all the time doesn't it seem like you would be more prone to acting on it?

Quote: FrGamble

There you go bringing up God and sin again.

Sin: Noun: An act that is regarded as a transgression of God’s will.

Verb: Commit a sin; violate a law of God.

Sin does not exist because God does not exist
and therefore there is no one to offend. Sin is
only real to those that have been tricked into
believing the Bible and the tales it spins about
our origins and nature. Sin is not real because
it's a concept tied directly to god, who is not real.
You can't take two negative truths (god and sin
are not real), and arrive at a positive resolution.
The peg will not fit the hole no matter how hard you pound.

How is a thread about sin derailed by talking
about sin?

Quote:

I've said this before you not only need to get new sources of information

Naw. I've seen the testimony thing many
times in the last 40 years, it never varies.
Christianity is a self worshiping religion,
it's all about me me me.. That's why people
like it, it's all directed at them. They have
a personal god who has a personal
relationship with them. Doesn't get much
more narcissistic than that.

Quote:

If you never kill anyone in your thoughts what are the chances that you will ever do so?

The two aren't related. Most murders are
crimes of passion or self defense. No
premeditation, they act in the passion
of the moment.

Okay you win, can we move on?

Quote: FrGamble

Okay you win, can we move on?

I don't know what this means? You're
saying god and sin don't exist? No
you're not. You just have no argument
that shows sin has any validity is the
real world.

Sin is the keystone of Christianity. I
realized this 40 years ago. When I
presented my doubts about sin to
my fellow young Christians, they
treated my like I was insane and had
a big smelly dog turd on the sole
of my shoe. It was then I realized
that without sin, the religion can't
exist. Been looking ever since for
somebody to show where sin is,
and nobody can. Oh well.

All I'll say is you have a mean streak of vainglory my friend.

Quote: FrGamble

All I'll say is you have a mean streak of vainglory my friend.

Nope. I just like separating fact from
fancy. Once you get stuck in the
middle, it can be hard to find solid
ground again.

One thing that came out of our
conversation is I learned that
reincarnation is now a respected
science. If it hadn't been for you
mentioning it, I might never
have found that out. It's really
started me thinking about things
I haven't contemplated in decades.

I'm glad to have got you thinking about something you haven't contemplated in decades. I just wish you would think again and contemplate something important like the human condition. That we all feel and know we are made to do great things and yet we so often make regrettable mistakes, faults, and omissions. How to understand and reconcile these two essential aspects of what it means to be a human being would be well worth your while. Maybe reincarnation is your answer?

Quote: FrGamble

That we all feel and know we are made to do great things

I don't ever feel that way, and have never
known anybody who has. Where do you
get stuff like that from. It's an egotistical
and narcissistic way of thinking. I'm so
wonderful I'm going to do great things!
Who thinks or talks like that.

Most people accomplish little or nothing
out of the ordinary. Those that do, admit
most of it was unintentional. It just worked
out that way. Is this how Catholics think,
that they're made to do great things? They
must be disappointed, they're just as mundane
as everybody else.