Israeli conflict

Quote: terapined

Let's say we both move to Israel and want to become citizens
Do you have more rights then me??????????????
Of course
We will both be treated differently because of religion
Why should religion determine rights
Why should you have more rights then me???????????

That is not exactly true. I don't know his active religious affiliation, but let assume it is Jewish based on that assertion. Right now, neither of you are citizens, you can both go their as tourists. However, if you want to actually move there, you would have to apply for citizenship. Any Jew can (relatively) easily become a citizen of Israel (unless there are some crazy personal issues,) so he would become a citizen far quicker than you which would give him more rights. Not because he is Jewish, because he is a citizen. Once you become a citizen, you will have equal rights. Yes, your process will take longer.

Citizens always have more rights than noncitizens even in America. And, countries can choose whatever requirements they wish to allow for citizenship (or to become a citizen quicker.)

Anyone can apply to be an Israeli citizen. This is not the case is Muslim countries where is most you need to be Islamic (and not just Islamic personally, often you need a Muslim father to prove that you are Islamic by blood.)

Every country in the Middle East treats people differently based on religion, except for Israel, yet Israel is the only country that gets accused of this, it is unfair.

I don't know a lot about it, but Israel has been accused of having second class citizens, the non-Jews of course

it may be an ex-officio standing to be first class

Quote: Gandler

That is not exactly true. I don't know his active religious affiliation, but let assume it is Jewish based on that assertion. Right now, neither of you are citizens, you can both go their as tourists. However, if you want to actually move there, you would have to apply for citizenship. Any Jew can (relatively) easily become a citizen of Israel (unless there are some crazy personal issues,) so he would become a citizen far quicker than you which would give him more rights. Not because he is Jewish, because he is a citizen. Once you become a citizen, you will have equal rights. Yes, your process will take longer.

WTF
Of course Soopoo would have more rights then me because he is Jewish and I am an atheist. You made the argument for me. Soopoo becomes a citizen much quicker then me because he is Jewish and I am atheist.
Let's say we both become citizens.
Soopoo still has more fundamental rights then me even though we are now both citizens
Say we both find Jewish girlfriends and want to get married. Soopoo and his girlfriend get married and it's recognized because it's a jew marrying a jew.
Israel will not allow me to get married to a jewish girl because I'm an athiest.
2 people in love should be able to get married regardless of religion. Not in Israel .
Citizen Soopoo clearly has more rights then citizen terapined due to religion

By the way
I'm biracial
My parents got married in 1958. It wasn't until 1967 that my parents marriage was legal in all 50 states. That's probably why my parents demanded a citizenship certificate for me in 1964 when I left the country to visit relatives overseas
2 people that love each other should be able to get married. USA has finally seen the light. Israel still living in the dark ages and won't let that happen due to religion which is absurd

not much to be found about it, but there is this. Clearly, there is an element of controversy and I think I detect efforts to control the topic when I look this up

Quote: link

Arabs comprise just over 20 percent of Israel’s population. The vast majority are citizens, while those in Jerusalem, which Israel claims as its capital, are considered “permanent residents.” [in other words, in J. they do not have full rights]

Arab citizens have the same legal rights as Jewish Israelis, but they tend to live in poorer cities, have less formal education, and face other challenges that some experts attribute to structural discrimination.

Arab political parties have long struggled to gain representation in Israel’s government

emphasis mine

https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/what-know-about-arab-citizens-israel .

Quote: odiousgambit

not much to be found about it, but there is this. Clearly, there is an element of controversy and I think I detect efforts to control the topic when I look this up

Quote: link

Arabs comprise just over 20 percent of Israel’s population. The vast majority are citizens, while those in Jerusalem, which Israel claims as its capital, are considered “permanent residents.” [in other words, in J. they do not have full rights]

Arab citizens have the same legal rights as Jewish Israelis, but they tend to live in poorer cities, have less formal education, and face other challenges that some experts attribute to structural discrimination.

Arab political parties have long struggled to gain representation in Israel’s government

emphasis mine

https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/what-know-about-arab-citizens-israel .

Can an Arab marry a Jew. Not in Israel.
It disgusts me that it's not allowed considering my parents situation.
Israel laws sucks when 2 people fall in love and want to get married. No govt should be able to prevent a marriage. It's a fundamental right in my eyes.

I think the second-class argument is well known within a segment of the Dem party, which is divided now over this as we all know

also from that link,

"Some analysts argue that Israel has effectively established an unjust, segregated society. 'Technically you don’t have redlining, technically you don’t have formal, Jim Crow–type segregation. In practice you do' ....
Israel’s establishment as an explicitly Jewish state is a primary point of contention, with many of the state’s critics arguing that this by nature casts non-Jews as second-class citizens with fewer rights. The 1950 Law of Return, for example....
Arab citizens’ concerns about inequality mounted after Israel passed its nation-state law in 2018 ... [which] ... declared Israel the nation-state of the Jewish people, and said the Jewish people have a unique 'right to exercise national self-determination in the State of Israel.' "

OK, I'm no pro-Palestinian but I think these things should be pointed out, I'm not buying that citizenship in Israel is totally squeaky clean

Quote: odiousgambit

I think the second-class argument is well known within a segment of the Dem party, which is divided now over this as we all know

also from that link,

"Some analysts argue that Israel has effectively established an unjust, segregated society. 'Technically you don’t have redlining, technically you don’t have formal, Jim Crow–type segregation. In practice you do' ....
Israel’s establishment as an explicitly Jewish state is a primary point of contention, with many of the state’s critics arguing that this by nature casts non-Jews as second-class citizens with fewer rights. The 1950 Law of Return, for example....
Arab citizens’ concerns about inequality mounted after Israel passed its nation-state law in 2018 ... [which] ... declared Israel the nation-state of the Jewish people, and said the Jewish people have a unique 'right to exercise national self-determination in the State of Israel.' "

OK, I'm no pro-Palestinian but I think these things should be pointed out, I'm not buying that citizenship in Israel is totally squeaky clean

I blame Hitler.

Quote: terapined

WTF
Of course Soopoo would have more rights then me because he is Jewish and I am an atheist. You made the argument for me. Soopoo becomes a citizen much quicker then me because he is Jewish and I am atheist.
Let's say we both become citizens.
Soopoo still has more fundamental rights then me even though we are now both citizens
Say we both find Jewish girlfriends and want to get married. Soopoo and his girlfriend get married and it's recognized because it's a jew marrying a jew.
Israel will not allow me to get married to a jewish girl because I'm an athiest.
2 people in love should be able to get married regardless of religion. Not in Israel .
Citizen Soopoo clearly has more rights then citizen terapined due to religion

By the way
I'm biracial
My parents got married in 1958. It wasn't until 1967 that my parents marriage was legal in all 50 states. That's probably why my parents demanded a citizenship certificate for me in 1964 when I left the country to visit relatives overseas
2 people that love each other should be able to get married. USA has finally seen the light. Israel still living in the dark ages and won't let that happen due to religion which is absurd

Try moving to Gaza and marrying a Muslim girlfriend.... Or any Islamic country for that matter....

I do not agree that rights are different based on citizenship acquisition, every country treat every applicant differently. Religious background is just one of the things that Israel looks at.

Quote: Gandler

Try moving to Gaza and marrying a Muslim girlfriend.... Or any Islamic country for that matter....

I do not agree that rights are different based on citizenship acquisition, every country treat every applicant differently. Religious background is just one of the things that Israel looks at.

We are talking about Israel
I know individual rights suck in some Muslim countries. The largest Muslim population country ain't even in the Middle East

Religion is EVERYTHING in Israel when determining if 2 people can get married
Jews have rights
Atheists have no rights when it comes to the institution of marriage
An atheist and a Jew cannot get married in Israel because of the country's religious laws that prohibit interfaith marriages
This is a fact

Quote: terapined

We are talking about Israel
I know individual rights suck in some Muslim countries. The largest Muslim population country ain't even in the Middle East

Religion is EVERYTHING in Israel when determining if 2 people can get married
Jews have rights
Atheists have no rights when it comes to the institution of marriage
An atheist and a Jew cannot get married in Israel because of the country's religious laws that prohibit interfaith marriages
This is a fact

Which Muslim country Middle East or otherwise allows interfaith marriage? It's strange that you only seem to be concerned about one country that is alleged to do it.....

Israel is by the the best country in the Middle East that protects secular rights. As an atheist and somebody who has lived in the Middle East, Israel is the only country in the Middle East I would live in on my own. And, if you are being honest, you probably have the same answer, because it's the only country where you can actually do the kind of stuff you like.