Easter: Message of Jesus?

Quote: Evenbob

What did he 'sacrifice', exactly. The Romans
crucified over 100,000 people in a 300
year span, they all died just like Jesus died.
What the difference between them and Jesus.
Are you saying Jesus would have lived forever
if he hadn't been killed?

I am still baffled as to how his death did anything
for anybody. The explanations about it are just
a bunch of words strung together that have no
meaning.

His sacrifice was, for his beliefs and position as an opposition leader to the ruling classes of his day, he allowed himself to be sold out by a false follower, mocked, scourged, nailed to a cross, stabbed, and murdered.

He had several, even many, opportunities to prevent his death sentence. But he believed/was told by God that this path was predestined from before his birth. So he overruled any thought of his personal safekeeping in order to fulfill his destiny as the messenger of God. In a way, Jesus is a rainbow.

I'm sure you know this, but the rainbow, in Judeo-Christian mythology, represents a covenant from God to never again send a flood to destroy life on earth. More likely they had a catastrophic monsoon for days or weeks, and the first they saw the sun, there was enough moisture in the air to make a beautiful one. They didnt understand physics; just that the sun haf returned, and there was hope of surviving the waters.


Jesus is another type of covenant for those who believe, as a path from an imperfect life to salvation in the next world, given to us by a Loving God. It is a promise of transition from Angry, Destructive God to one with a dimension of mercy.

Again, it is impossible to see where anyone was coming from on these things unless you factor in the state of scientific knowledge, which was minimal. Even accounting for advances in Greek, Egyptian, Mayan, and other people's mathematics and sciences of that time and before ot, communicating that information beyond their immediate populations, with no organized schooling, few written forms of communication, and no widespread information availability.

Knowledge was not just unavailable, in many cases it was held to the priest and ruling classes, and the general population kept in ignorance. Oral histories and lore were the only widespread means of info flow. Anybody who's played a simple game of Telephone knows how unreliable verbal information is given and received. And depending on your position, status, and ambition, it might benefit you to elaborate or create fairy tales to a purpose.

So I take what I can from the Bible, with a healthy dose of skepticism and context, and go forward.

It's also important to note, as a societal issue, that belief can assuage fear of death and the unknown, and bring comfort in times of tragedy. I prefer the cold of logic, but would deny no one their beliefs, because I also believe in mercy.

Quote: beachbumbabs

His sacrifice was, for his beliefs

Lots of people throughout history have
sacrificed themselves for something.
I went to HS with a guy who
threw himself on a grenade in Vietnam
to save his friends. His belief was they
deserved to live if he could save them.
How come he isn't revered and worshiped
like Jesus is.

I don't see Jesus death is any more important
than my friends death. In fact, I think my
friends death is more meaningful because
he actually accomplished something by it.
Jesus did nothing as far as I can see, by
dying. Just a bunch of unproveable intellectual
nonsense that his followers can't even agree
on.

Quote: Evenbob

Lots of people throughout history have
sacrificed themselves for something.
I went to HS with a guy who
threw himself on a grenade in Vietnam
to save his friends. His belief was they
deserved to live if he could save them.
How come he isn't revered and worshiped
like Jesus is.

I don't see Jesus death is any more important
than my friends death. In fact, I think my
friends death is more meaningful because
he actually accomplished something by it.
Jesus did nothing as far as I can see, by
dying. Just a bunch of unproveable intellectual
nonsense that his followers can't even agree
on.

Better PR people, perhaps?

Reverence towards awe-inspiring sacrifice continues, even in yourself. I don't doubt your friend is worthy of remembrance and respect.

Pat Tillman is still worshipped in some quarters for walking away from the NFL to serve, and die, for this country. I know at least one friend who only owns one jersey, Tillman's, and will never buy another. Rabid football fan, too.

MLK pursued peaceful protestso for civil rights despite death threats and eventual assassination, and has a federal holiday in appreciation, same as Jesus, and hangs on the same home altar wall with him in millions of US homes.


The football coach killed in Florida this week while shielding his students is being revered. I'm betting they'll rename their stadium after him.

Jesus had a couple thousand years head start and very fervent followers, many of whom allowed themselves to be martyred in his name.

What, in the end, is the difference in who a person venerates? My issue comes with forcing any belief system down my throat in the form of laws, but short of that point, please believe as you like.

Quote: beachbumbabs

Pat Tillman is still worshipped in some quarters for walking away from the NFL to serve, and die, for this country.

Here here.

Quote:

Jesus had a couple thousand years head start and very fervent followers, many of whom allowed themselves to be martyred in his name.

We just finished watching the Tudors on Netflix. It covers the period of Henry the VIII. Pretty crazy how the church of England separated from the Catholic church. The reformation and constantly plotting against each other. And both burned Lutheran's, Protestants and other heretics at the stake. Burnings, beheadings, torture and drowning, all amongst fellow xtians.

Henry did have that divorce thing figured out. : )

Quote:

What, in the end, is the difference in who a person venerates? . My issue comes with forcing any belief system down my throat in the form of laws, but short of that point, please believe as you like.

No problem. I wish they didn't vote as a block, ganging up on infidels.

Quote: beachbumbabs

Reverence towards awe-inspiring sacrifice continues,

But in the case of Jesus, what was
awe inspiring about his death.
100K+ died that way, a fact you
never hear harped on in any church,
it's usually never mentioned. I've
run into countless Xtions over the
years who think Jesus and the 2 thieves
were the only humans ever nailed to a
cross. When they hear the truth,
they either think I'm lying, or
they get really confused.

Jesus supposedly died for the
most specious of reasons, an
unproven intellectual concept,
sinning against a god. People
broke a gods laws and hurt the
gods feelings, and Jesus had
to die to atone for it. None of
it provable or even agreed on
in the Xtion church itself.

To an atheist it's all nonsense of
the highest order.

Quote: petroglyph

Burnings, beheadings, torture and drowning, all amongst fellow xtians.
.

The best reason for never taking Xtionity
seriously, just study it's history. Realize
this is Jesus church, run by god and some
thing called a holy spirit. Not anything I
want any part of..

Quote: Evenbob

The best reason for never taking Xtionity
seriously, just study it's history. Realize
this is Jesus church, run by god and some
thing called a holy spirit. Not anything I
want any part of..

Certainly proof of sin, no?

Quote: FrGamble

Certainly proof of sin, no?

There is no god so sin cannot exist.
I realized that after spending a
year and a half around Xtions in
the 70's. They were obsessed with
sin, but could barely explain what
they thought it was. Just like you,
who has yet to post what sin is. So
far all I've gotten is that it's a vague
feeling that you can do better than
you're doing, and this is why Jesus
died. Seems pretty specious to me.

I hope you all know how much respect I hold you all in (and yes that includes Evenbob). It is such a gift to find folks willing to talk about religion and not scared to share our strong opinions and wrestle with other ideas. I really like Babs and think she adds much to our conversation, however in the kindest way possible I feel like I need to point out that what she is presenting is not a Christian belief, it seems more like a watered down modern version of an age old heresy called Arianism.

Anyway, I am sure she feels something wrong with what she believes as Bob in a much kinder way than he ever has to me, needles her with some good challenges. Being forced to compare Jesus to Pat Tillman, someone who jumps on a grenade, or just about anyone who altruistically sacrifices for the common good is an uncomfortable place to be in. Why not worship Tillman not Jesus or better yet MLK, Jr. (now there is a religion I could get behind)? Jesus was not even the first to die for others in the myth of the hero sacrifice present in just about every culture. Jesus was no doubt a great teacher, but even His teaching is not completely different or unique than other prophets or holy men who have gone before. What is it that makes Jesus the undoubted most pivotal and influential person who ever has or ever will live?

The only answer is that He is God incarnate. This is the uniqueness of His teaching and this is what lead to His Crucifixion. He said that He was one with the Father, that He has existed before all time, that He was Lord of the Sabbath and could do things that only God could do - such as forgive sins. He demanded His followers to love Him above all things, even mother and father, son and daughter. He said that all people come to God through Him. All this forces Babs and all of us who are attracted to the teachings of Jesus to realize that He will not allow us to just call Him a good guy and a great teacher. Good guys don't make the claims Jesus makes. He is either a liar and the opposite of a good guy, a crazy person which we know He is not, or He is telling the truth. These are really your only options. I reckon Bob would call Him either a liar or crazy. I believe He is telling the truth and He really is God. Pretty much the only thing we can't say is what you have offered - that He is a model guy and good teacher.

The other reasons of course to believe He is telling the truth and is truly God is that this is the only way to explain the real significance of His sacrifice, the reality of the Resurrection, and His impact on history. Jesus' death is important not because of how He died (why Evenbob keeps bringing that up as significant is strange). It is that He died at all. Sin is what separates us from a perfect God and we were created to be with God. No matter how hard we try, we cannot live according to our own conscience, our own morality, much less God's perfect law. This is what the Old Testament is all about. God establishing a covenant with His people, them breaking the covenant, and God reestablishing the covenant, again and again. In the fullness of time God's solution to this problem is to take our humanity and finally fulfill the law perfectly and then as the innocent lamb of God pay the price for our sins - death. Then rising from the dead Jesus shows that not only is He truly God but that we too will rise from the dead to live untied with God forever in Heaven. He has loved us and by His death and Resurrection has freed us from our sins. Jesus surely is altruistic in His sacrifice and has inspired everyone since 33 AD from Tillman to MLK, but that is not what His death means nor why He came. He is truly God and therefore is the only one who can truly be perfect and the only one who can truly die for all.

This is why Jesus is so popular. It has nothing to do with head starts in the PR department. His Resurrection was not a demoralizing half dead wounded man stumbling around claiming to be Risen from the dead. If anything that would have had His followers locked even tighter together in the Upper Room. No, He was truly Risen and glorious in His victory over death. This was such a powerful event that every single Apostle and follower who saw it was so full of zeal that they exploded from the upper room with no more fear of death. And death awaited them all and the willing went to it, never recounting, only proclaiming the louder that Jesus was the Risen One, the Son of God, who has freed us from our sin and death. The more the Church was persecuted the more it spread and is now the largest religion on Earth spread to every corner of the globe.

I better stop here but there is so much more to say. I hope people read this far.

Quote: Evenbob

There is no god so sin cannot exist.
I realized that after spending a
year and a half around Xtions in
the 70's. They were obsessed with
sin, but could barely explain what
they thought it was. Just like you,
who has yet to post what sin is. So
far all I've gotten is that it's a vague
feeling that you can do better than
you're doing, and this is why Jesus
died. Seems pretty specious to me.

Okay, let me try this again.

Is there something that a friend could do that would cause you to stop being friends with them?