Simple question?

Quote: FrGamble

I think this is part of what makes the life and message of Jesus so different.

Do I need to summon Sheldon again?

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When Constantine converted and then later made Christianity the state religion in a way this idea was ruined.

Constantine did not make Christianity the state religion, Theodosius did several years later. Constantine issued the Edict of Milan, decreeing toleration for all religions. He then proved his complete and utter lack of bias by providing literally tons of money to the church, and by promoting Christians throughout the civil and military administrations while sacking as many pagans as he could get away with.

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Interesting thoughts and you are right about what happens without a centralized authority. That is why Jesus established St. Peter as the first Pope or leader of the Church.

Nice try. But what happens after the Man is dead and gone, is that people do realize this and act accordingly. Christianity didn't begin to splinter after Theodosius made it the state religion, it did so almost from birth. By the time of the Edict of Milan, Constantine found it necessary to gather all the bishops together to resolve (once and for all!) theological differences (Tiny Iota and all that).

This all-church council proved so successful, there have been many, many more since. All, no doubt, have settled things once and for all.

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Yes, it would have been a little like herding cats at time and it would take longer to settle theological disputes but the truth will out.

Ha! That's really funny.

Consider we can prove evolution happened. We can prove homeopathy, acupuncture, naturopathy, chiropractic, etc. are worthless. We can prove astrology is bunk. And much more. Yet you still have rather large numbers of people who won't accept these proofs. And not only can we show proof, we have solid evidence anyone can examine.

So, in a realm, like religion, completely devoid of evidence, dependent on mistranslated, distorted texts, and where "proof" means argument and rationalization, you think you can unify the whole of the world's population under a single conceptual framework?

To quote Peter Jurassik: Send me 20 lbs. of whatever you're smoking, please.

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As it is Christianity was in some ways hijacked by the Romans and made into a European tool to wield power and accumulate wealth.

Not by the Romans in Europe. That came later. Christianity helped the decline and fall of the Western Empire.

The Eastern Empire prospered a bit afterwards, using Christianity as a tool. but they were largely not European. In fact, the European (ie Latin) eastern emperors were a mix of brilliance and destructive bad decisions. Like Justinian, who threw away many gains by trying to re-conquer Africa and Italy, perhaps simply because, to quote Robyn Pierson, "What is the Roman Empire without Rome?"

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I think you are scared of a Church without power, wealth, or prestige.

We can make an experiment: have Francis transfer all the church's wealth to me, or to the Satanic Temple if you'd rather, and see how scared I get.

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Sorry all that wealth goes to supporting the largest charitable organization the world has ever seen. I also think you and many others who pretend the pope is swimming in gold coins would be disappointed.

But wouldn't the popes sleep better without having that money to tempt them? I'm only trying to help. Do you know what a PITA money can be?

I haven't been able to find any records of catholic charity except for pretty recent stuff from usa-based catholic charities.

I did find articles about the current massive accumulated wealth of the church

http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/pope-francis-fails-mention-vatican-billions-gives-speech-denouncing-wealth/

http://money.cnn.com/2015/09/24/news/pope-francis-visit-vatican-catholic-church/

and an article covering the history of how they accumulated all of that wealth

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/vatican/vatican_billions.htm

so before modern times, how much money and effort did they spend in caring for the sick and poor?

Interesting discovery:

In the legal profession you can stymie a rival by inundating them with legal motions over every aspect of a trial (suppression of evidence, testimony, recusal, etc.) In arguing with Catholics, you can do the same by burying them under a big pile of Roman minutiae; with the added bonus that it's all true.

This also means I'm under a deep debt to Mike Duncan, Robyn Pierson and several people over at The Great Courses.

Quote: Nareed

Let's say no form of Christianity ever attained even a milligram of temporal power. What then? Very likely it would have evolved into many different splinters, as it has in fact done, but in a more extreme form, because there would have been no centralized authority even trying to herd the cats at all, as happened to Protestants.

I believe Islam counts as a splinter.

And look, it has the violent elements currently.

No surprise.

Quote: rxwine

I believe Islam counts as a splinter.

I know very little about Islam (by design). I expect I'll learn eventually (to my dismay). Superficially it seems more influenced by Judaism than Christianity, though.

There's an AH series of stories by Harry Turtledove called "Agent of Byzantium." The point of departure (POD) has Muhammad become a Christian monk, ergo he never goes on to found Islam, ergo the Byzantine (i.e. Roman) Empire doesn't decay, but remains a force to be reckoned with. The best part, though, is that Persia (aka the Sassanid Empire) also remains strong and keeps up its Zoroastrian worship. In a latter story, we learn the very Christian Byzantines permit the worship of Ahura Mazda at Fire Temples, as a way to guarantee like treatment of Christians within Persia.

The latter isn't too farfetched. Before the Sassanids were overrun by Islam, and before the Byzantines decayed as a result of losses against Islam, the two empires could get along relatively well in between wars. At one point they even declared an "Eternal Peace" between them, which lasted a significantly long amount of time

Quote: FrGamble

Interesting thoughts and you are right about what happens without a centralized authority. .

I said the same thing about the Church
being nothing without Rome and you
disagreed. Now you say it's true? Just
like Coke would be a nothing soft drink
without relentless marketing, so would
the Jesus story have faded away. Glad
to see you're on board with that.

Quote: Dalex64

and an article covering the history of how they accumulated all of that wealth

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/vatican/vatican_billions.htm

I sent this detailed article to FrG 5 months ago and
asked him 3 times to read it. He said he would
and has never commented on it. That's because
it shows the Church for what it is, ruthless and
greedy.

Quote: Dalex64

I haven't been able to find any records of catholic charity except for pretty recent stuff from usa-based catholic charities.

I did find articles about the current massive accumulated wealth of the church

http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/pope-francis-fails-mention-vatican-billions-gives-speech-denouncing-wealth/

http://money.cnn.com/2015/09/24/news/pope-francis-visit-vatican-catholic-church/

and an article covering the history of how they accumulated all of that wealth

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/vatican/vatican_billions.htm

so before modern times, how much money and effort did they spend in caring for the sick and poor?

Pretty amazing reading there. Very informative links. What an amazing amount of wealth the church has laid claim to. A ghastly sum of wealth.

Quote: Evenbob

I sent this detailed article to FrG 5 months ago and
asked him 3 times to read it. He said he would
and has never commented on it. That's because
it shows the Church for what it is, ruthless and
greedy.

Have you seen how long that article is? Knowing you I doubt you have even read the whole thing. It is also not the most well written article and is quite confusing with rare moments where it backs up its claims. I am on chapter three. It seems at times to agree with me about the theological and practical problems that the Church had to face when Constantine converted. Some of its claims about what happened on pilgrimages is just looney and incorrect, but pilgrimages and relics were certainly sources of income for the Church and for the local community surrounding these pilgrimage spots. I find its mentioning of monastic communities who all take a vow of poverty a strange reason given for the Church's wealth. I also thought it was good to highlight some examples in the Church's history of people who did not fall victim to the temptations of wealth and power. I really do think the real history of the Church is that of its saints. More to follow as I continue to learn more details about the real situation of the Church's wealth and how it was accumulated. Already I have found that there is quite a few historical mistakes in this article you posted so I would encourage you to continue reading and look at some other sources.

Quote: petroglyph

Pretty amazing reading there. Very informative links. What an amazing amount of wealth the church has laid claim to. A ghastly sum of wealth.

Really the first two links I found fairly worthless. The first one in particular is strange and written from a strange point of view. I'm still working through the third. Anyway I was intrigued by the phrase, "ghastly sum". I agree that if the Church was sitting on disposable income for some reason it might be considered ghastly as its mission is not to hold unto worldly wealth but rather to store up wealth in Heaven through acts of loving care and concern for all people. I haven't seen that there is this concern. The Sistine Chapel and the artwork is surely priceless and the amount of property the Church ones upon which sit Churches, Hospitals, schools, convents, orphanages, soup kitchens, etc. However I wouldn't call this wealth disposable or liquid.