Simple question?

Quote: Nareed

Ha! That's really funny.

Consider we can prove evolution happened. We can prove homeopathy, acupuncture, naturopathy, chiropractic, etc. are worthless. We can prove astrology is bunk. And much more. Yet you still have rather large numbers of people who won't accept these proofs. And not only can we show proof, we have solid evidence anyone can examine.

So, in a realm, like religion, completely devoid of evidence, dependent on mistranslated, distorted texts, and where "proof" means argument and rationalization, you think you can unify the whole of the world's population under a single conceptual framework?

To quote Peter Jurassik: Send me 20 lbs. of whatever you're smoking, please.

The thing you are missing and why these things do continue to have its believers is because of experience. You can show them all the information you want but that one time the astrological reading seemed so correct cannot be driven from their minds no matter what evidence you might have. They need to experience the failure of astrology to begin to change their minds. Eventually they will, because it is false.

In regards to religion it is the experience of living Lord Jesus that along with all the other reasonable arguments and evidence you deny exists that leads people to belief. Of course as an atheist you have absolutely zero evidence nor even a logical argument to dissuade people from believing in Jesus Christ. Therefore, you have to wait until people no longer experience the real and personal love of God through the person of Jesus Christ. You have to wait until their faith in Jesus stops transforming their life and making them into the best versions of themselves. You will be waiting till hell freezes over.

Quote:

We can make an experiment: have Francis transfer all the church's wealth to me, or to the Satanic Temple if you'd rather, and see how scared I get.

You can easily see what a poor Church looks like, go to a holy monastic community that serves the poor near you, I dare you.

Quote: FrGamble

Already I have found that there is quite a few historical mistakes in this article

The gist of it is accurate, the Church got
rich thru greed and power, like everybody
who got rich in those times. Why would
I read more, I knew that already. The
history of Church on interests me in
that it was never about god, it was about
tyrannical men wanting power over others.

The saints, what about the saints. You think
what you read about them is true? Look
what just happened to Teresa. She was
no saint when alive, let alone now. She
was an awful human being who's main
goal wasn't to comfort the dying, it
was to convert them to her religion and
give them as little help as possible. Most
of the time she was out soliciting donations
for the Vatican and staying at her rich
friends homes. Some saint.

Quote: Evenbob

Why would
I read more, I knew that already.

This comment is what scares me about you and why one really has to wonder if it is worth having a conversation with you.

Quote:

She was an awful human being who's main
goal wasn't to comfort the dying, it
was to convert them to her religion and
give them as little help as possible.

Only someone who claims what you do above could say such a thing. Not only are you not reading, you are also not thinking.

Quote: FrGamble

In regards to religion it is the experience of living Lord Jesus that along with all the other reasonable arguments

So according to you, this is something privy to Roman Catholics, otherwise all the Orthodox and protestants would believe the same way you do.

I think you're putting something really funny in your reefer.

Quote:

You can easily see what a poor Church looks like, go to a holy monastic community that serves the poor near you, I dare you.

I've seen. I wasn't scared. At first it struck me as a good idea, but then I found they let the monks out.

But, really, if, say Warren Buffet had a relative living in self-imposed poverty, would you expect me to believe Berkshire Hathaway is a poor company?

Tell you what, have Francis move out of the Vatican and into a one-bedroom, no bath apartment in the poorest section of Rome. Surely he can commute to the big Museum where he works at every day. Then I'll take his talk of poverty seriously.

About the Church's money, I'm reminded of Malcolm Gladwell's rant against big donations to universities.

See, institutions like Harvard, Columbia, Princeton, etc. have endowments totaling several billions of dollars. What they obtain from investments per year is more than sufficient to fund these universities, and then some, for that period. Therefore donating money to rich universities is a waste of money. Someone wanting to further higher education in the US, therefore, should send their money to smaller, less wealthy schools with smaller or non-existent endowments.

Makes sense, doesn't it?

Now, what is the Vatican's net worth and income per annum in investments? How much of that money is distributed to charities or local churches? How about the net worth and income from the dioceses, or whatever the subdivisions are called?

If you support their mission, whatever the hell it is, is your money best employed by donations to the church, or by giving it to charities or organizations that do the actual work?

Quote: FrGamble

The thing you are missing and why these things do continue to have its believers is because of experience.

Hardly.

You describe confirmation bias, which is real and may play a part. But people believe in such things as astrology, religion, numerology, etc because they want to believe. That's why evidence makes no difference to them. Why they want to believe is a more complicated question, as there are a variety of reasons for it.

Quote:

They need to experience the failure of astrology to begin to change their minds. Eventually they will, because it is false.

You're one to talk... Science has been steadily chipping away at religion for 350 years now, and it's not letting up.

The discipline that is bringing religion down is Cosmology. When we can make a beginning at comprehending the universe, and keep finding natural explanations and causes for everything, the reed you cling to becomes ever slimmer and more precarious.

If it's any consolation, Cosmology goes back as far as Newton and Galileo. It's neat, too. Newton could determine that light has a finite speed by one simple observation: the night sky is dark. See, if the speed of light were infinite, and some people thought it was, then all the light from every light source would be literally everywhere at once instantly. Thus the night sky would be ablaze with light (presumably the day sky as well, though the Sun might sill manage to outshine the distant universe, maybe). Cool!

Quote: FrGamble

This comment is what scares me

I don't need every bit of info on
my bad neighbor before I know to
avoid him at all costs. I certainly
know enough about the Church's
awful violent greedy past to know
what's at it's heart. And it's certainly
not god or Jesus or anything good.
It's greed and the relentless acquisition
of power and wealth, big surprise.

Quote: Nareed

So according to you, this is something privy to Roman Catholics, otherwise all the Orthodox and protestants would believe the same way you do.

I think you're putting something really funny in your reefer.

We are constantly seeing the movement of the spirit bringing Christians together. Just the other day Catholics and Anglicans began new ways with the Pope to paving the road to unity, there has been huge strides in communion with Lutherans, and the Orthodox and Catholics are always getting together then storming out and then getting together again. What we believe about Jesus Christ and our experience of Him as our loving Savior is universal. There is much more that unites us then separates us.

I will say and I am sure Evenbob will too that there are some small denominations or fundamentalist store front Churches that engage in vicious attacks on their brother and sister Christians. I think after having Evenbob share some of his interactions with these people, many of whom are in his own family and part of the cause of his atheism, I might sincerely doubt their Christian faith as I am sure they would mine.

Quote:

I've seen. I wasn't scared.

If you spent anytime there you would be. If you are really at war with the Church this is where you will lose. There in those holy convents and monasteries is the real power of the Church. They live out the faith in extraordinary ways and are always at work with those in need and are always praying for you, me, and our world.

Quote: Nareed

Someone wanting to further higher education in the US, therefore, should send their money to smaller, less wealthy schools with smaller or non-existent endowments.

Makes sense, doesn't it?

There are elements of truth to what you are saying here. I've often wondered about the size of some of those endowments and if those places really need more money. However, these places are at the cutting edge and the top of their field. When we grow those endowments it allows them to push the envelop even further that they might not be able to do if we all focused on the little guys and tried to build up their endowments. Stuff to think about and I feel some of this depends on your philosophical view and end goals of giving.

Quote:

Now, what is the Vatican's net worth and income per annum in investments? How much of that money is distributed to charities or local churches? How about the net worth and income from the dioceses, or whatever the subdivisions are called?

Every year there is a world wide collection called Peter's Pence and I know that all of that money goes to charitable work. I think the yearly numbers are around $70 million. The Archdioceses and dioceses (you are right about the divisions, color me impressed) do not make money for the Vatican but stand alone as their own independent Churches. For example there is the Archdiocese of Mexico City. They are of course connected to the Vatican because we are all Catholic but there is not some joint bank account where the money is stored in the misnamed "Vatican Bank". The Institute for Religious Works (I think it is called) is a bank in the Vatican that might hold the accounts of some dioceses but they are very much separate like any other bank account.

Quote:

If you support their mission, whatever the hell it is, is your money best employed by donations to the church, or by giving it to charities or organizations that do the actual work?

I think it is both/and. As a Catholic we are sustained and inspired in all that we do by the Sacraments of the Church. The Eucharist is the source and summit of all Christian activity. Therefore the Church is the engine that fuels and nourishes all the activity of the Church, including its charitable works. Many times the Church itself is the source of these charitable works.

Quote: FrGamble

I think after having Evenbob share some of his interactions with these people, many of whom are in his own family and part of the cause of his atheism

I'm an atheist because there is no
evidence for a god, not because
of some idiocy some dopey
Xtions spouted. Give me more
credit than that.