Simple question?

Quote: Nareed

That no one saw happening. And then Jesús looked different. Hm.... Seems legit.

So that's your story and you are sticking to it huh? Someone imitated Jesus, gave himself the scar marks of the crucifixion and pretended to rise from the dead. Hey I will give you that it at least tries to give some reason for unmistakable change that took place in the disciples when they saw what they thought was the Risen Lord. What I don't buy is that those who loved Jesus so much, including His own mother who was in the Upper Room with the disciples would have been fooled. Good try though.

Quote: FrGamble

So that's your story and you are sticking to it huh? Someone imitated Jesus, gave himself the scar marks of the crucifixion and pretended to rise from the dead. Hey I will give you that it at least tries to give some reason for unmistakable change that took place in the disciples when they saw what they thought was the Risen Lord. What I don't buy is that those who loved Jesus so much, including His own mother who was in the Upper Room with the disciples would have been fooled. Good try though.

Now you know mom's sometimes even protect their children even when their children are wanted for serious crimes.

Would she be likely to agree with his bigger than life reputation instead of the strict truth that he was ordinary and dead?

Quote: FrGamble

What supplied the lasting power of Jesus' Resurrection story,

There were lots of versions of the story in
Constantine's time. He happened to become
the patron of a sect that used both the OT
and the newer manuscripts. The first thing
Constantine does as emperor is to hunt
down and persecute all the other Christian
sects, and there were lots of them, that
don't agree with the one he's adopted.
He wanted one empire with one religion
to rule the empire with. He realized he
could control the people thru the Church,
if they had no other religious choice to
turn to.

So there is no mystery here. Without
Constantine, the religion would have
remained a few dozen unimportant
sects and eventually died out as most
religions do. In Constantine they had
a modern CEO with vision and the
means to attain it. Had nothing to
do with god or Jesus, it was about
power, just like everything else. And
you're just a pawn in the now fading
story, like so many before you.

Quote: Evenbob

The first thing
Constantine does as emperor is to hunt
down and persecute all the other Christian
sects, and there were lots of them, that
don't agree with the one he's adopted.
He wanted one empire with one religion
to rule the empire with.

Please explain to me then why with the Edict of Milan he only made Christianity legal, he himself did not become Christian at that time and it was a full 67 years later when Christianity was made the religion of the state?

Quote:

So there is no mystery here. Without
Constantine,

Without Constantine we would not have been brought into the confusing state of Church mixed with State, none of the things you often accuse the Church of committing would have never happened and the pure form of Christianity would be the only religion of the whole world by now. It was the temptation of power, wealth, and prestige that hindered but did not stop the message of the Resurrected Carpenter and Son of God from spreading. It is a good thing that in recent times the Pope's continue to call us back to the poverty and true strength of the Church, which is found only in the Gospel and not in the halls of congress or through worldly means.

Quote: FrGamble

and the pure form of Christianity would be the only religion of the whole world by now

No it would NOT! Why is Coke the most
drank and recognized soft drink in the
world. Because it's the best? Hardly.
It's because of 140 years of aggressive
unrelenting marketing and advertising.

Christianity got so big not because it
was true, but because it had a brilliant
marketing plan. Destroy the competition
and force their product on the populace
under punishment of death. Convert
or die. Without this plan, they would
have remained a ragtag religion of
dislocated sects with no center and
no core that would have died out.

Quote: Evenbob

Destroy the competition
and force their product on the populace
under punishment of death. Convert
or die.

Do you think this was the strategy for the North American Martyrs, or the Korean Martyrs, or the African Missionaries, or those of the Glenmary missionaries in rural America today. You are taking a little bit of what you know about the history of some abuses in places like Mexico and Europe and extrapolating them to every place where missionaries went. Don't be so foolish and simple minded.

Quote: FrGamble

Do you think this was the strategy for the North American sMartyr.

It certainly was for what we're talking about,
the start of the Church. It's growth and power
came not from god, but from the sword.
It wiped out all other religions in Europe and
forcibly converted whoever it could. You
always act like it's so mysterious and glorious
that the 'true' Church grew and prevailed.
Not hard to do when you have brute force
on your side.

Quote: FrGamble

So that's your story and you are sticking to it huh?

No, it's your story.

Quote: FrGamble

Without Constantine we would not have been brought into the confusing state of Church mixed with State,

You make it seem as though Constantine, and later Theodosius, did something entirely unprecedented in the whole history of history, when they did exactly as every previous generation had done before.

In Rome there had always been a state religion, including a government official, or magistrate if you prefer, with the title of Pontifex Maximus who served as head priest for the Republic. On the transition to Empire, the title transferred to the emperor, who was expected to become divine after death. All Citizens and subjects practiced a cult of the emperors as well, and this included Jews.

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none of the things you often accuse the Church of committing would have never happened and the pure form of Christianity would be the only religion of the whole world by now.

That is even funnier.

Let's say no form of Christianity ever attained even a milligram of temporal power. What then? Very likely it would have evolved into many different splinters, as it has in fact done, but in a more extreme form, because there would have been no centralized authority even trying to herd the cats at all, as happened to Protestants. Not only would we have even more varieties today, but the practice of animal sacrifices might well have possibly persisted in many of these splinters.

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It was the temptation of power, wealth, and prestige that hindered but did not stop the message of the Resurrected Carpenter and Son of God from spreading.

Sheldon Cooper would say something sarcastic about the word "hindered" now meaning "enabled."

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It is a good thing that in recent times the Pope's continue to call us back to the poverty and true strength of the Church, which is found only in the Gospel and not in the halls of congress or through worldly means.

Well, we wouldn't want to see the Pope unhappy and a failure, would we? Tell him I'd be more than willing to sacrifice myself for his cult, by accepting all the wealth hoarded at the Vatican free of charge. I'll even be willing to write an iron-clad guarantee that not one penny of all those billions would make it to any kind of Catholic or other Christian splinter institution, nor any other religion just for good measure.

Quote: Nareed

You make it seem as though Constantine, and later Theodosius, did something entirely unprecedented in the whole history of history, when they did exactly as every previous generation had done before.

I think this is part of what makes the life and message of Jesus so different. For Jews at that time the Messiah was going to lead them to political freedom from their oppressors. Instead the Messiah came to give them true freedom, the freedom from the law, freedom from sin, freedom from guilt, shame, and fear. Freedom from death itself. Jesus wasn't interested in being made king, He rejected attempts to try and do so. Jesus was about making the kingdom of God break into and transform the earthly kingdoms.

When Constantine converted and then later made Christianity the state religion in a way this idea was ruined. Christianity became connected to worldly power and even still today we call it Roman Catholicism when really it should just be Catholicism or as it was for the majority of its history, just Christianity.

Quote:

Let's say no form of Christianity ever attained even a milligram of temporal power. What then? Very likely it would have evolved into many different splinters, as it has in fact done, but in a more extreme form, because there would have been no centralized authority even trying to herd the cats at all, as happened to Protestants.

Interesting thoughts and you are right about what happens without a centralized authority. That is why Jesus established St. Peter as the first Pope or leader of the Church. His successor and the successors of the Apostles were already set in leadership over the Church long before the Romans got their hands on it. Yes, it would have been a little like herding cats at time and it would take longer to settle theological disputes but the truth will out. I have no doubt at all that the good, holy, and smart saints of the Church would demonstrate the true teachings that would eventually win over everyone. What is better it would happen naturally, organically, and wouldn't require the force or fear that sometimes those in "power" would put upon those who didn't agree. This Church would indeed have spread all throughout the world and the entire world would be converted by now.

As it is Christianity was in some ways hijacked by the Romans and made into a European tool to wield power and accumulate wealth. It was used to set up an us verses them mentality when this goes directly contrary to the message of Jesus Christ who told us to go out to all the nations and baptize them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Quote:

Sheldon Cooper would say something sarcastic about the word "hindered" now meaning "enabled."

I think you are scared of a Church without power, wealth, or prestige.

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Well, we wouldn't want to see the Pope unhappy and a failure, would we? Tell him I'd be more than willing to sacrifice myself for his cult, by accepting all the wealth hoarded at the Vatican free of charge.

Sorry all that wealth goes to supporting the largest charitable organization the world has ever seen. I also think you and many others who pretend the pope is swimming in gold coins would be disappointed. Maybe you can talk the Pope into giving you a priceless work of art, we do have lots of those.