Hey FrGamble!

Quote: FrGamble

I am only saying that the fact there is some non-contingent force/person/reality that we commonly call God that created all that exists is obvious. That is just simple logic supported by the scientific facts.

And yet, and yet, the scientific community
does NOT support this. If it's so obvious,
how could this be so? Because it's NOT
obvious in the least. When you use the
word 'obvious' to make a point, especially
a point that's not obvious at all, what
you're really doing is saying to the other
person that they're so clueless, so stupid,
so lacking in education that they're missing
what's obvious to everybody else.

When you say 'obvious', it's an integral
part of your flimsy argument. Put the
person in their place as intellectually
below you to hopefully make them
come over to your side. And sometimes
it works. It's why the clergy is often
looked at as snake oil salesman. They
use whatever tactics they need to sell
their unproveable and unsavory stories.
Anything to close the sale.

Quote: FrGamble

I think we are both busted and embarrassing ourselves. Anyone can easily check out what the Catholic Church really believes in the Catechism and anyone can also very easily tell that the falsehoods you keep sharing are not true

Everybody but you and your
Church is wrong. Bart Ehrman
claiming Jesus was an apocalyptic
preacher,
the silly physicists who have
a theory that the Big Bang is
something that happens over
and over. The history of the
printing press and the effect it had
on the Church. The Inquisitions
and forcible conversion of Jews.
On and on, all that stuff is lies
according to you. There are
lies here all right, and how many
have your Church been caught
red handed at. Who can't we trust,
the Church, or the people looking
for real history and real facts.
The answer is 'obvious'.

Quote: FrGamble

I think you are confused about what I am saying.

I am not saying that the truth of Christianity or my personal understanding of God is obvious. I am only saying that the fact there is some non-contingent force/person/reality that we commonly call God that created all that exists is obvious. That is just simple logic supported by the scientific facts. How could there be something and not nothing if there was not a "God"? Do you disagree? Why? What other options are there? It is obvious and just because that makes you uncomfortable doesn't mean I am in any way trolling or insulting you. There are lots of smart people that don't think it is obvious, but there are a lot of smart people that think all kinds of things that don't make any sense.

Padre - you ask "What other options are there?"

Without even getting into science, and sticking to the supernatural, why are none of the hundreds (if not thousands) of other Creation explanations proffered by ancient civilizations (from which Christianity borrowed heavily) an option? Can you disprove those Creation explanations? I'll answer that for you - "No"

What a terrible shame that the Spanish burned all but a few of the Aztec books.

https://www.mexicolore.co.uk/aztecs/spanish-invasion/burning-maya-books

https://science.howstuffworks.com/innovation/inventions/5-ancient-aztec-inventions5.htm

Quote: petroglyph

What a terrible shame that the Spanish burned all but a few of the Aztec books.

https://www.mexicolore.co.uk/aztecs/spanish-invasion/burning-maya-books

https://science.howstuffworks.com/innovation/inventions/5-ancient-aztec-inventions5.htm

The Vatican ordered all the
written history of the Aztec's
destroyed because it was in
a language they couldn't read
and of course had to be the
work of Satan. Ignorance
was the Churches middle name.

Quote: aceofspades

Padre - you ask "What other options are there?"

Without even getting into science, and sticking to the supernatural, why are none of the hundreds (if not thousands) of other Creation explanations proffered by ancient civilizations (from which Christianity borrowed heavily) an option? Can you disprove those Creation explanations? I'll answer that for you - "No"

That is a good answer and I agree. What is the question here is not what creation story but that there is a creation story. It has always been and is still now obvious just based on human reason that there is a creator. The world and study of religion can talk about how people come to know and what they believe of the creator. However, it still remains obvious that there is a God.

Quote: Evenbob

And yet, and yet, the scientific community
does NOT support this.

I doubt you can find one serious scientist that would say with certainty that there is no God.

Quote: Evenbob

Bart Ehrman
claiming Jesus was an apocalyptic
preacher,

Without a doubt yes.

Quote:

the silly physicists who have
a theory that the Big Bang is
something that happens over
and over.

Why do you call them silly? I don't know if it happened over and over again and I'm sure they have good reasons to say what they do even if they are in the small minority. However, no matter how many times it might have happened or how many multiverses you posit, it all had to begin somewhere.

Quote:

The history of the
printing press and the effect it had
on the Church.

The printing press had a HUGE effect on the world and the Church.

Quote:

The Inquisitions
and forcible conversion of Jews.

We have talked about this before. I've pointed you to read the Wikipedia entry about the Inquisition and even offered a few good books written by objective historians if you wanted to round out your understanding of its history. I've also showed you multiple times and in multiple places that the Church teaches that force is never a part of conversion.

Quote:

On and on, all that stuff is lies
according to you.

They are falsehoods that you believe.

Quote: Evenbob

The Vatican ordered all the
written history of the Aztec's
destroyed because it was in
a language they couldn't read
and of course had to be the
work of Satan. Ignorance
was the Churches middle name.

Again just pure fantasy and falsehood. Where do you get this stuff?

Quote: FrGamble

I doubt you can find one serious scientist that would say with certainty that there is no God.

And to you this is scientific
evidence that a god exists?
Because science can't prove
a negative? Good grief.