Hey FrGamble!

Quote: FrGamble

They are falsehoods that you believe.

They're facts that the Church denies.

Quote: FrGamble

Again just pure fantasy and falsehood. Where do you get this stuff?

It's everywhere in the history
books.

"The Spanish invaders and Catholic clergy who accompanied them destroyed many
of the old documents and archives of the civilizations which preceded them. They
carried out this destruction often for military reasons (to demoralize the indigenous
fighters opposing them), or, in other cases, on religious grounds (to battle what they
regarded as the false faith of the native peoples). They damaged, or even annihilated,
indigenous people’s records and archives."

The Vatican ordered destroyed the
entire Inca library of their written
history. Only two copies exist
because the priests sent one to
the Vatican, and Cortez sent one
to the king of Spain. The Vatican,
with it's ever bigoted and closed
mind, was threatened by anything
it didn't understand. Gods
clergy are usually the most closed
minded people in any time period.

Quote: Evenbob

And to you this is scientific
evidence that a god exists?
Because science can't prove
a negative? Good grief.

No, just saying that you are wrong that the scientific community denies the existence of God. I don't think anyone could seriously deny the possibility of God without the type of anger you seem to have, combined with the firm belief in falsehoods and exaggerations you have been told.

Quote: FrGamble

No, just saying that you are wrong that the scientific community denies the existence of God. I don't think anyone could seriously deny the possibility of God without the type of anger you seem to have, combined with the firm belief in falsehoods and exaggerations you have been told.

FrG, as Bob has pointed out earlier, it is basically impossible to "prove" many negatives. I will agree with you, I cannot prove God does not exist. And I am well aware I never will be able to. No chance. Just as I will never be able to prove someone didn't roll 11, eighteen times in a row.

Just like I can't prove you weren't born on Mars.

Forged birth certificate. "Parents" in on the scam. "Government" keeping it a secret for political reasons. All non-zero possibilities. But so close to zero for my life I consider it zero.

When you say God could be "some force that started everything" I can give you a chance that is correct. When you start into the trinity, virgin birth, son dying, etc.. stories it makes no sense. None.

Quote: SOOPOO

When you say God could be "some force that started everything" I can give you a chance that is correct. When you start into the trinity, virgin birth, son dying, etc.. stories it makes no sense. None.

I think we are understanding one another.

First of all you are giving voice to the importance of faith. There are many things in our lives that don't have non-zero possibilities but we consider them as such based on reasonable faith. My food has never been poisoned in the restaurant before, it smells good, is there a chance it is, sure ,but I have faith it is not. Is there an invisible unicorn living in my backyard? Same thing.

In regards to atheism; it is a zero possibility. Atheism has as much chance to be true as the existence of a square circle, matter popping into existence without a cause, or something moving without a force acting upon it. So, while I think we are moving in the right direction since you can give me a chance that there is some necessary force/power/person that started everything; it is really in my way of thinking a certainty. Again if you have any other ideas how existence could exist I would be happy to hear them.

In regards to Jesus Christ you run into a little problem in saying it make no sense. If you give it a small chance that I was born on Mars, I find it inconsistent and a sign of some bias in you that you don't recognize any chance a historical figure who changed human history for all time and founded the world's largest religion was who He says He was.

Quote: FrGamble

In regards to atheism it is a zero possibility. Atheism has as much chance to be true

It has the same chance as theism.
In fact, there is better odds that
atheism is true. No where in nature
does it point to walking on water,
raising the dead, or turning water
into wine as having any possibility
of happening for real. You know
this, that's why you have to double
down on your beliefs and grab
people by their lapels and shake
them into believing your nonsense.

An atheist just shrugs and walks away,
we don't care what silliness you want
to waste your life on.

Bob, for goodness sake atheism is not just a rejection of Christianity. I know that looms large in your mind, but I am only talking about atheism as the illogical and impossible belief that there is no God whatsoever, nothing supernatural, and no chance of any force/power/person creating the universe. This idea is without any merit or justification. There is nothing reasonable about such a position. You don't believe in Christianity, or at least in the false conception of Christianity you have been taught and pretend to be true, I understand that. Put that aside for a moment and just think a little more about your larger position of the notion of "God".

Quote: FrGamble

I am only talking about atheism as the illogical and impossible belief that there is no God whatsoever, nothing supernatural,

Tell you what. Prove the supernatural
exists and we'll start from there.
You can't even do that, can you. You
want to skip that minor step and
populate your totally unproveable
supernatural landscape with all
kinds of impossibles. The world
has moved on and your Church is
still 200 years in the past. It's why
in 2000 86% of people in S America
identified as Catholic and today
it's 69%. In 10 more years it will be
under 50%. People are sick of
your voodoo nonsense.

It is not nonsense. Think about what God must be if God is the creator or cause of nature. We call that supernatural, literally above or beyond the natural world. Again it would very much help you to stop thinking this discussion is about Catholicism or Christianity. It is about the only logical conclusion to wondering why or how there is something rather than nothing? The answer is some supernatural power/force/person we commonly call God. This is not you just making up your own reality or other such baloney, this is just where the facts and logic unmistakably lead us.

Quote: FrGamble

It is not nonsense. Think about what God must be

I had this same problem when
I was in the Xtian group. I slowly
noticed they had no proof of the
supernatural they were always
talking about. They wanted me
to just take for granted that it
was all true.

Quote:

It is about the only logical conclusion to wondering why or how there is something rather than nothing

"There was never a Big Bang that produced something from nothing. It just seemed that way from mankind's point of perspective." Stephen Hawking

You just assume there was
nothing because it fits your
narrative. The universe has
been here forever, there
never was 'nothing'. We
can't wrap our minds around
that because we've been trained
wrong. There is even science
now that says the universe is
so infinitely large that multiple
big bang are going off all the
time creating billions more
galaxies.