Hey FrGamble!
May 20th, 2020 at 2:48:25 PM permalink | |
FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 | I don't think either of us have a problem with things changing. A good exercise will be for you to think about that paper going backwards. It started as a tree that tree started as a seed from another tree from another tree and on it goes. Eventually you get back to the first tree. Where do you go from there? What about the planet earth eventually you get to the formation of the planet Earth and then you keep going back all the way to the beginning of the solar system and then the universe. I think you see that you can't keep going back infinitely. Eventually you get to an absolute beginning. I think you see that and that is where you end up needing a first cause aka God. “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
May 20th, 2020 at 3:08:58 PM permalink | |
Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25011 |
You really refuse to get this. If the space the galaxies exist in, the universe, has always been here forever, there is no beginning or end. You're so hung up on the theory that EVERYTHING had a beginning, you can't conceive of 'always existing'. You should consider going back to your church's old stance and quit trying to pound the square peg of religion into the round hole of science. Pick one and be done with it, you can't have both. If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |
May 20th, 2020 at 4:01:30 PM permalink | |
FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 | This really isn't about religion. Just follow the paper trail backwards and you will see the absurdity of what you are suggesting. “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
May 20th, 2020 at 4:12:32 PM permalink | |
Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25011 |
What's absurd is your refusal to admit you understand this concept. For your religion to work there has to be a creation with a definite beginning. You cannot consider any other option, so you just ignore them. Nothing new about that, your Church did it to Galileo when he proved the earth orbited the sun. This was heresy of the highest kind, we all know how that worked out. The Vatican made the same argument you make. It's obvious the sun goes around the earth. It's obvious the universe had a beginning. It's not obvious at all. If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |
May 20th, 2020 at 4:54:43 PM permalink | |
FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 | You are ignoring the merits of the argument and trying to avoid dealing with the impossibility of your position. I understand why you don't want to talk about it. By the way you know of course that St. Thomas Aquinas didn't have the advantage of modern cosmology. I'm not sure what you mean about need of the argument. It seems again you are distracting or using some weird ad hominem attack. You are also bringing up false history. You know that Copernicus who came up with Heliocentrism was fine. The Church didn't even forbid Galileo from holding it, just not teaching it till it was proven and better understood. It is not a hersey of any kind to say that the Earth revolves around the sun. You are really confused. Again just stay with the argument why an actual infinite regress is impossible. “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
May 20th, 2020 at 5:48:06 PM permalink | |
Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25011 | Galileo was tried in 1633 and found guilty of heresy and sentenced to imprisonment. Look it up. How is the theory that the universe has been here forever any more impossible than the theory that the universe was created by some God. The difference is the universe being here forever makes sense and a ceator God makes absolutely no sense. We live in the eternal moment. The eternal moment has always been here and will always be here. It even feels that way if you let it. I always find it remarkable the people who have friends and relatives who have died are never worried about where that person is now. They know instinctively that everything is fine. It has nothing to do with heaven or hell or reward or punishment. We all instinctively know what we are part of in eternity. It has nothing to do with religion or God. If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |
May 20th, 2020 at 6:03:54 PM permalink | |
petroglyph Member since: Aug 3, 2014 Threads: 25 Posts: 6227 | I have one relative who believes the earth is 6 thousand years old. So I asked about dinosaur bones, and was told god created them artificially old. I guess to fool us? The last official act of any government is to loot the treasury. GW |
May 21st, 2020 at 5:07:32 AM permalink | |
FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
It was house arrest, not imprisonment, but he was still punished.
Because the universe having a cause makes logical sense while the idea that material things have existed forever without a cause is logically and scientifically impossible. I don't know how much more clear I can say it.
So your belief about the idea of things mysteriously existing and moving without a cause is based on a feeling of some "eternal moment"?!? Come on Bob, you can't be serious? “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
May 21st, 2020 at 9:48:04 AM permalink | |
Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25011 |
Only if you're totally hung up on causes and beginnings. Just like the Church did with the sun orbiting the earth. They painted the picture, proclaimed it the only logical hypothesis, and imprisoned you if you disagreed. Anything that doesn't fit their narrative is condemned. Every single thing about Xtianity has to be doubted and examined given it's shady past. If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |
May 21st, 2020 at 12:41:15 PM permalink | |
FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
Copernicus wasn't imprisoned nor was Galileo for that matter, nor the countless other religious scientists who showed clearly the fact of Heliocentricism. But we digress, you keep trying to make this about me and the Church or Christianity and it is not. The fact that there is a God is clear using your unaided reason. You mention it only makes sense if you are hung up on causes and beginnings. Those things do not interest you? Don't you want to know the cause of the Coronavirus or your genelogy? Don't you want to think about how Communism began or the evolution of finches? The majority of our study in science, history, etc. is about causes and beginnings. We learn a lot from them and it is what we can know and learn from. You aren't suggesting we look at current day Poland and just assume it has always been there? We would be wrong and we wouldn't learn the fascinating history of that country. If we just said that it looks like the Earth and the Sun have always been here and didn't study their cause and beginnings think of how little we would know. You are hung up on causes and beginnings just as I am, we all are. “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |