Hey FrGamble!

Clear scientific evidence that shows the universe had a beginning? You mean the galaxies inside the universe. The universe itself is infinite. You have no idea how many times the galaxies have collapsed and given birth to themselves again. You like to think the one we're in now is the one and only. It's not. Be comforted, you're part of something that's always been here and always will be. If you could get all that religious nonsense out of your head you could see that.

Quote: FrGamble

God reached them in His own way before the Gospel of Jesus Christ was shared with them. He is God and He does love all people and desire all to be saved, I think they can know God in various ways as they await the coming of the Revelation of Jesus Christ.

Do you think it's possible that if he kept his existence a secret from those billions of people, that perhaps he kept a few things secret from the church?

Quote: FrGamble

God reached them in His own way before the Gospel of Jesus Christ was shared with them. He is God and He does love all people and desire all to be saved, I think they can know God in various ways as they await the coming of the Revelation of Jesus Christ.

Then what am I mis-remembering? I could swear that Christians say something like you must accept Jesus as your savior to go to heaven? So I thought those Billions would be ineligible? Just out of luck?
Same as babies who died before being cognizant of Jesus?

Quote: Evenbob

Clear scientific evidence that shows the universe had a beginning? You mean the galaxies inside the universe. The universe itself is infinite. You have no idea how many times the galaxies have collapsed and given birth to themselves again. You like to think the one we're in now is the one and only. It's not. Be comforted, you're part of something that's always been here and always will be. If you could get all that religious nonsense out of your head you could see that.

If you got all that atheistic nonsense out of your head you could see that both of us agree that we are part of something that will always be. Since in Heaven we will be with God then I guess we are also part of something that has always been.

My problem is that it doesn't make sense for you to hold that a material universe, no matter how many you think there are, is eternal. You are going against the evidence of science and logic. Sure you can wish some magical made-up scientific what ifs, but we both know that is not something to base a belief upon. Either way you can show God exists through motion or causality/contingency. So if you think you are escaping from the cosmological argument for God by positing an eternal material universe you are not. I don't see what your hang up is about realizing the universe, the first one if you believe there are many, was created. I've told you before you only have to jettison your atheism, which you should have done many years ago, you can still be an agnostic. Anyway, I'm afraid you've drunk the kool-aid to the dregs and are too scared to acknowledge the possibility of God.

Quote: petroglyph

Do you think it's possible that if he kept his existence a secret from those billions of people, that perhaps he kept a few things secret from the church?

I think it is more than possible that the Church doesn't know all the secrets and mysteries of God. I'd go so far as to say its a certainity.

Quote: SOOPOO

Then what am I mis-remembering? I could swear that Christians say something like you must accept Jesus as your savior to go to heaven? So I thought those Billions would be ineligible? Just out of luck?
Same as babies who died before being cognizant of Jesus?

You might be thinking of fundamental Christian denominations, that is not the Catholic view. God desires all to be saved and those before Christ and those for whom it was not possible in their life for a variety of reasons to know and believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ were certainly invited to eternal salvation through the free gift of the love of God.

Reading the stuff you just wrote, and realizing we were having the same conversation 5 years ago is starting to make me want to not do this anymore. It's going nowhere, all I'm doing is talking to myself.

I I could not care less if anybody believes the same way I do. But you are here for one reason only and that is you need for everybody to believe like you do, it's what you've been taught. When I go back and read posts from 5 years ago it's like you're a robotic machine that just says the same things over and over. The point of all this is escaping me. Like somebody said, and no it was not Einstein, if you keep doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result that's a sign that you're a little off your rocker. if nothing else it shows you're in a rut.

Bob, I wonder if your feelings might be connected to you starting to see the cracks in what you believe. I think you should take a break from arguing with me on the forum. However, don't take a break from thinking about these things. I promise you that you are one good read or re-read of C.S. Lewis' "Mere Christianity" away from at the very least being an agnostic. Good luck brother and know (not that you care or think it does any good) that I am sincerely praying for you with love in my heart.

Quote: FrGamble

Bob, I wonder if your feelings might be connected to you starting to see the cracks in what you believe.

Nice try. Always closing as usual, ever
the salesman. I just went to send you
a PM and see you STILL have me
blocked? You know what, you are
not worth another minute of my
time right now. You're a broken
record mounted on his high horse
of moral righteousness that has not
a word to say that I haven't heard
100 times already.

Still praying for you and for what it is worth I do not feel the same way about you.