God and Gay Marriage

Quote: reno

We could debate the statement: "Birth control is sinful." But anyone arguing: "Birth control doesn't prevent births." is clearly out of touch with reality.

Again it is not as simple as the practical consequences of artificial birth control, which does prevent births. Of course it does. However, to say that artificial birth control has not affected or infected our culture with a mentality regarding sex that has caused huge problems is clearly out of touch with reality.

Quote: FrGamble

Actually the Church's views on marriage are mature, complicated, and true.

Yet 98% of American Catholic women use birth
control, and 78% of Catholic women worldwide
use it. They heard the Church's advice and
ignored it. Don't you find that odd?

Quote: FrGamble

...clearly out of touch with reality.

Does anyone else find the irony here?

Quote: FrGamble

Again it is not as simple as the practical consequences of artificial birth control, which does prevent births. Of course it does.

Excellent, we're in agreement.

Now suppose a Catholic doctor at a Catholic hospital offered free vasectomies to 100 low income (married) men, and suppose the vasectomies prevented 5 abortions, shouldn't that doctor be praised by his Bishop & congregation for his generous donation? He saved 5 babies, he helped these poor men feed their families better meals, he's doing the work of Jesus, and he is a blessed man. Knowledge of birth control, is God's blessing, not his curse. (Haven't you Catholics ever heard the joke about the 3 boats & the helicopter?)

Alas, the Church's greatest sin is stubbornness. The stubborn Bishop would excommunicate that doctor, the stubborn Catholic hospital would fire him, and the hypocritical congregation would judge & shun him. But at least after he died, Jesus would thank him for saving those 5 babies.

Quote: FrGamble

Yes, artificial contraception can and does prevent pregnancies and therefore in this sense lowers the abortion rate.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Church considers withdrawal to be "artificial". So using certain man-made tools (a calendar & thermometer) is "natural", but using no tools whatsoever (withdrawal) is "artificial".

I'm beginning to think these phoney nonsense rules were made up by man, not by God.

Quote: reno

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Church considers withdrawal to be "artificial". So using certain man-made tools (a calendar & thermometer) is "natural", but using no tools whatsoever (withdrawal) is "artificial".

We don't know what "natural" means, as none of our pre-civilized ancestors left any records about it. But I'm pretty sure they didn't use a calendar or a thermometer.

Quote:

I'm beginning to think these phoney nonsense rules were made up by man, not by God.

Is there any doubt?

I wish there was a pause on this thing. Y'all go too fast, and I'm not quick enough to hop in =p And to tell the truth, I wasn't going to, as y'all are hammering on everything just fine without me. But there's something here that's got me tilted so bad I can't ignore it.

FrG, it sort of makes sense what you're saying. Make something "easier", more people will do it, in this case sex. But that's shortsighted. You have to keep thinking.

Let's say we get rid of the more intrusive methods. Nix the nuvaring, get rid of the pill, no more vasectomies. You can still use a condom, or whatever cockamamie rythym-method bs someone comes up with, or whatever it is you offered (I didn't look, dunno what it was). I can't be the only one, in fact, there can't be anyone who thinks that people will suddenly decrease their instances of risky sex just because of the loss of those devices. You know they won't.

You're argument drives me literally batshit, because it's the same one used on drugs and guns and every other "evil" out there. It's yet another judgement on "outside things". It's a judgement on weed, on machine guns, on the pill. None of these are the cause of anything. What we have here, in every single one of these cases, is a people problem.

I happen to agree with you that random sex, that is, the one night hook up with a stranger, is harmful beyond just your physical health. But taking away devices used to protect your physical health does NOTHING, not one single thing, other than add the risk to your physical health. If people in general had the wherewithal to say "hmm, could be dangerous, I'd better not", we wouldn't be having this discussion. But many people don't, so it's a damn good thing we have condoms and the pill and... what is it, PREP? Some new drug for those who engage in risk, that supposedly helps prevent the contractions of HIV. You may look at this and think "Oh lawd, look at 'em encouraging the sin." But if you remove these assistants, you remove nothing else. Not the urge to "sin", not the willingness to risk, not the behavior that results in these aids in the first place. All you do is remove protection from those who need it most.

You want people to be smarter about sex? You have to deal with the person. Not with outside things they can or can't use, because they don't give f#$# all about that. I didn't do 170 on public roads just because I had a kevlar jacket and a carbon brain bucket. I did it in a tank top, too. The fact that we have first world medicine and a guarantee to be seen did not have one iota of an effect on me pounding a kilo of coke into my head. I look back on everything I've done, and for everything I can see now as having been "stupid", I can trace back farther to see it was the result of being a broken human being. All the hard drugs, some of the motorsports, and a bit of the sex... some of it was just good times. The one's that weren't, the ones that damaged my body and soul, all have the same source. I was broken.

Fixing that "broken"... goddamn it, man. That should be EVERYBODY'S goal! You try to legislate access to "things"... were does that get you? Look around! Do you see rehab centers closing up shop for lack of patients? Any prisons gone belly up in your parts? Have the gang bangers and the tweakers stopped shooting up everyone? No, no, and no! Because we put such idiotic and retarded focus on "things". We'll make weed illegal and 30 round mags illegal and not let kids get the pill... and wtf happens? Black market, prison, kids getting killed, babies having babies.

Enough of the madness. Try, no matter how you have to spin it, to put a person before God. Because when it's just them and their thoughts, "them" is gonna win more often than not. It doesn't take much for one's own mind to spin whatever they "know" into getting what they want, and the threat of damnation itself won't stop them. I know. I've been there. And the only thing that stopped me, the only thing that saved my life, was changing my own mind. Not the threat of death, not the threat of punishment, and certainly not the opinions of others, whether mortal or omnipresent.

It's the only way. And it's hard to do. But it is the only way. So put a person first. Not because God said so, or because their parents want them to, or whatever... help them until what is right is what they actually want. Change the person. It's the only way.

Quote: Face

Fixing that "broken"... goddamn it, man. That should be EVERYBODY'S goal! You try to legislate access to "things"... were does that get you? Look around! Do you see rehab centers closing up shop for lack of patients? Any prisons gone belly up in your parts? Have the gang bangers and the tweakers stopped shooting up everyone? No, no, and no! Because we put such idiotic and retarded focus on "things". We'll make weed illegal and 30 round mags illegal and not let kids get the pill... and wtf happens? Black market, prison, kids getting killed, babies having babies.

Enough of the madness. Try, no matter how you have to spin it, to put a person before God. Because when it's just them and their thoughts, "them" is gonna win more often than not. It doesn't take much for one's own mind to spin whatever they "know" into getting what they want, and the threat of damnation itself won't stop them. I know. I've been there. And the only thing that stopped me, the only thing that saved my life, was changing my own mind. Not the threat of death, not the threat of punishment, and certainly not the opinions of others, whether mortal or omnipresent.

It's the only way. And it's hard to do. But it is the only way. So put a person first. Not because God said so, or because their parents want them to, or whatever... help them until what is right is what they actually want. Change the person. It's the only way.

I can totally get behind this. Ultimately I am under no impression that if contraceptives were outlawed everyone would stop having sex, in fact if we did something like that cold turkey it would be disastrous. We have to fix the brokenness and that is the ONLY solution. The social ills we are talking about are the canary in the cave. When those canaries start dying or the wood beams start creaking you don't bring more wood down in the cave to pretend to shore up the millions of pounds of rock above your head, you get out! The way we get out is by changing our mentality and that is what religion does for so many people.

In the meantime though we shouldn't keep reinforcing the cave, its useless and ultimate makes things worse. You have cut through the crap and identified the real problem.

Quote: reno

Excellent, we're in agreement.

Now suppose a Catholic doctor at a Catholic hospital offered free vasectomies to 100 low income (married) men, and suppose the vasectomies prevented 5 abortions, shouldn't that doctor be praised by his Bishop & congregation for his generous donation? He saved 5 babies, he helped these poor men feed their families better meals, he's doing the work of Jesus, and he is a blessed man. Knowledge of birth control, is God's blessing, not his curse. (Haven't you Catholics ever heard the joke about the 3 boats & the helicopter?)

Alas, the Church's greatest sin is stubbornness. The stubborn Bishop would excommunicate that doctor, the stubborn Catholic hospital would fire him, and the hypocritical congregation would judge & shun him. But at least after he died, Jesus would thank him for saving those 5 babies.

Is there any other way this doctor or anyone for that matter could do this in a more practical way than offering 100 free vasectomies? I think there might be a way you can inspire these men to be responsible and holy. Instead of "fixing" them, why don't we really try to fix them without cutting them up? You have to remember that the Church views these men as inherently good and awesome children of God and not mindless slaves. We call the best out of them and while not as foolproof as some surgery it is better in the long run for them, their wives, and society.

Quote: Face

Change the person. It's the only way.

Easier said than done. Most people don't want
to change. You did it, many cannot. People will
always take the path of least resistance most
of the time, that's a proven fact.

Face, I really enjoyed that contribution. I didn't necessarily agree with all of it, but you certainly hit a couple home runs in there.

Quote: Face

...babies having babies.

One of the myths which really needs to be debunked is that teenage girls these days are getting knocked up, and aborting fetuses in between trips to the mall to go shopping for lingerie. We live in a world of hypersexualized everything: hardcore pornography is everywhere, slutty celebrities are glamorized, marijuana is completely legal in 4 states, filthy rap lyrics, video games, boob implants, thong underwear, tattooed butts, pierced genitals, and everyone is getting gay married.

Yet it turns out that there were twice as many pregnant teens when I was in high school than there are today.



With all this free sex everywhere, the sanctity of marriage is under attack. With all these gays prancing around, the sanctity of marriage is under attack. IUDs, internet porn, free contraceptives, viagra, cialis-- you'd think divorce rates have never been higher.



But seriously, my theory is that people are getting married later in life, and as a result they enter into marriage as mature adults more capable of making mature choices about who to marry. In the old days, if you were 19 and horny, (and/or pregnant) you'd get married. But birth control has allowed us to separate sex from marriage, and so people can wait until they're 30 to get married, as opposed to tying the knot when they're just 19. Personally, I made better decisions as a 30 year old, than I did as a 19 year old.