God and Gay Marriage

Quote: FrGamble

By the way sex is not just some biological function.

According to biological science that's
exactly what it is. Dressing it up to
be something it's not is irrelevant.

Why is NFP morally acceptable? It is contraception, just like any other. You are using science to find out when you can have sex and not get pregnant.

You know this ahead of time, and are having sex NOT for the purposes of procreation. It seems like as much a slap in god's face as any other.

How is this any different from using a condom?

And FrGamble lost a TON of respect with me when he implied that sex with contraception is rape.

There is nothing wrong with couples avoiding pregnancy for a multitude of good reasons. Using NFP is respecting and understanding our God given nature. NFP is not adding barriers, hormones, or other unnatural means to avoiding pregnancy.

I did not mean to imply that sex with contraception is rape! I implied that the desire to have sex whenever we want is the attitude that can lead to rape or abuse or forcing even a loved partner or spouse to engage in sex when they don't want to. This happens to couples more often than you may realize but I have been personally effected by this attitude and how it can often even lead to domestic violence. One of the greatest aspects of NFP is that it requires the man to respect, understand, and effectively communicate with their spouse before both parties agree to make love.

An explanation is in order.

First of all I'm a woman. All women are sensitive to the matter of rape. We know it can happen at any time and there will be no warning. We know to be aware of this and to take precautions when warranted.

Second I'm a transgender woman. this means two things:

1) If someone tries to rape me, chances are it will escalate to a brutal assault or murder, once the attacker finds out whom he chose to assault.

2) The recent widespread movements to deny transgender people access to the gender appropriate restrooms, either implies or outright claims we want such access only as a means of molesting or raping unsuspecting women.

So, to say I'm suggesting rape when I'm talking about the convenience and reliability of modern contraceptives, goes way beyond the line. It's completely inappropriate, insensitive and outrageous.

Yes we've gone after each other's positions and beliefs all out. And I grant I've been really hard on him. But I never said a cross word about him and there were no personal attacks on my part, certainly none even close to this magnitude.

This is not something that can ever be forgiven, its' not something that will pass. I've blocked him, and I've no further interest in what he has to say. If he intends to apologize, that's his tough luck. I'm not a Christian (and there's not a day I'm not grateful I'm not), and I'm not required to forgive transgressions against me. Remember, I hate my enemies and I fight them.

Quote: FrGamble

It teaches people that sex is safe and can be even done for recreation.

This sentence makes it sound like recreational sex is always a sin under all circumstances. (Maybe that's not what you meant.) At the very least, the Church disapproves of married couples who are artificially infertile (due to vasectomy, tubal ligation, the Pill, IUD, etc) from having recreational sex. So does the Church disapprove of married couples who are naturally infertile (due to menopause) from having recreational sex? If not, why is recreational sex acceptible for married post-menopausal women (and their partners) but for no one else on planet Earth? Your God is extremely picky.

The fact that the Church allows couples to use NFP implies that the Church is ok with married parishioners having sex for fun, so long as their specific choice of birth control is approved by the omniscient Church. If sex is solely for reproduction, than the use of NFP is clearly extremely sinful.

Quote: FrGamble

I implied that the desire to have sex whenever we want is the attitude that can lead to rape or abuse or forcing even a loved partner or spouse to engage in sex when they don't want to. This happens to couples more often than you may realize but I have been personally effected by this attitude and how it can often even lead to domestic violence. One of the greatest aspects of NFP is that it requires the man to respect, understand, and effectively communicate with their spouse before both parties agree to make love.

You've backed yourself into a corner with this statement; I'd suggest retracting it. I see 2 glaring flaws with your logic:

1) The sex life of a married couple who are naturally infertile (for example, post-menopausal) isn't much different from the sex life of a married couple who are artificially infertile (due to vasectomy, tubal ligation, the Pill, etc.) For the married couple who is naturally infertile, is God setting them up for rape or domestic violence? After all, the naturally infertile couple can have sex whenever they want, which (according to you) is the slippery slope to rape & domestic violence.

2) If men using birth control are inevitably prone to rape & domestic violence, that would surely apply to NFP as well. In fact, NFP helps the husband learn which days of the calendar are the best days to rape his wife. And based upon what the NFP calendar says, the husband could go out and rape some other woman on the wife's fertile days.

The Church loudly proclaims itself to be an expert on marriage. But the Church's views on marriage are childish, simplistic, and ultimately contradictory.

Quote: reno

Of course birth control prevents abortions. I'm shocked you would argue otherwise. These statistics on effectiveness seem about right to me.

Wow, I knew the Catholic "natural" birth control method was bad, I didn't know it was so bad.

Strictly speaking, a pregnancy that never came about cannot be said to have prevented an abortion. If Mary's not pregnant, she doesn't need to decide what to do about it, right? But it stands to reason women who employ effective birth control methods are much less likely to be faced with an unwanted pregnancy. Also that fewer pregnancies mean fewer abortions.

If all this is so, then just about condoms or hormonal methods are a preferable means of, let's say, deterring abortions than make-believe methods.

Quote: Nareed

...fewer pregnancies mean fewer abortions.

Exactly, this is basic logic. If birth control didn't prevent births, no one would use it.

We could debate the statement: "Birth control is sinful." But anyone arguing: "Birth control doesn't prevent births." is clearly out of touch with reality.

We could debate the statement: "I don't like house cats because their personalities are annoying." But anyone arguing: "I don't like house cats because they are 12 feet tall." is clearly out of touch with reality.

Quote: reno

But anyone arguing: "Birth control doesn't prevent births." is clearly out of touch with reality.

I could argue anyone believing in any kind of god is out of touch with reality, but that's not entirely true.

I will argue anyone blindly accepting a conclusion has no choice but to rationalize their premises. If we start with multiple conclusions and also try to accommodate modern mores, the rationalizations get spectacular and ever more removed from the immediate subject. Ergo this nonsense that contraception promotes prostitution, pornography, rape and human trafficking.

Contraceptives and contraception methods are as old as humanity. I shudder to think what women in the old days inserted in their vaginas; let's just say the Romans must have found every use there is for sponges. Condoms made of lambskin, animal intestines and other even less likely materials keep being found in archaeological digs. Withdrawal doesn't require an advance degree in biochemistry or a pharmaceutical industry, and neither does anal or oral sex.

Prostitution is as old as humanity as well, or older if we consider our almost-human ancestors. Pornography has existed about as long, though that's harder to determine precisely. Nudity taboos come and go. So does promiscuity. For that matter so does polygamy, which someone left out of their most recent rant. No doubt without these new-fangled, godless contraceptives we also wouldn't have bad VP pay tables or 6:5 Blackjack.

What didn't exist until the mid XX Century were reliable, effective means of contraception. Rape, human trafficking, pornography, prostitution, and polygamy did exist before.

Regarding what kind, frequency and motive for sex the Catholic church regards as proper:

Does it occur to anyone else that a bunch of chaste old men without any practical experience of marriage or raising a family, or even satisfying one's self and one's partner sexually, are not the best people to determine such things?

Quote: reno

The fact that the Church allows couples to use NFP implies that the Church is ok with married parishioners having sex for fun,

Yes, sex is not just for procreation it has a twofold meaning. Uniting the couple closer in love and the possibility of procreation. Married couples having sex for fun is great and not at all what I mean when I talk about recreational sex. Recreational sex is the one-night stands, the hook up mentality. This is the mentality that leads to unwanted pregnancies and abortions.

Yes, artificial contraception can and does prevent pregnancies and therefore in this sense lowers the abortion rate. What you are not taking into consideration is the mentality that contraception creates. It is you who are nor really dealing with reality. The mentality of two people who barely know each other feeling they can have sex without consequences is the type of mentality that leads to more pregnancies and abortions. You are only looking at half the picture.

Quote:

1) The sex life of a married couple who are naturally infertile (for example, post-menopausal) isn't much different from the sex life of a married couple who are artificially infertile (due to vasectomy, tubal ligation, the Pill, etc.) For the married couple who is naturally infertile, is God setting them up for rape or domestic violence? After all, the naturally infertile couple can have sex whenever they want, which (according to you) is the slippery slope to rape & domestic violence.

Even without having to practice NFP the important characteristic of communication and respect for each other in the bedroom is essential to a proper understanding of marriage.

Quote:

2) If men using birth control are inevitably prone to rape & domestic violence, that would surely apply to NFP as well. In fact, NFP helps the husband learn which days of the calendar are the best days to rape his wife. And based upon what the NFP calendar says, the husband could go out and rape some other woman on the wife's fertile days.

Yes and someone could use a toothbrush to stab another person. Your fatal logic flaw is that the conclusion doesn't follow from the premises and your comments are all reductio ad absurdum.

Quote:

The Church loudly proclaims itself to be an expert on marriage. But the Church's views on marriage are childish, simplistic, and ultimately contradictory.

Actually the Church's views on marriage are mature, complicated, and true. It is the world's view of marriage that childish, simplistic, and contradictory. Think about it. The Church is asking couples to engage in serious and respectful conversation about when both are ready to engage in one of the greatest acts human beings could ever engage in. It is requiring reverence for sexual activity and self-control. It is also asking couples to use their God given natural bodies to plan their pregnancies if for good reason they should not or cannot have children at the current time. What does the world say about marriage - it is just for your pleasure and there happens to be another consenting adult present who if and when he or she is no longer to your liking you can easily divorce him/her. If and when you want to have sex just have one partner slap something on his junk, have him undergo surgery, or have her take a pill, or insert a sharp plastic object in her uterus and you can go anytime.