God and Gay Marriage

Quote: FrGamble

I can point out the increase in promiscuity, adultery, pornography, the abuse of women, sex slavery, increase in certain types of STDs, the harmful effect of the pill on women, etc., etc. For these reasons the Church can stand against being forced to provide contraception and to lobby the government to stop thinking they are fixing problems that are actually making it worse."

My wife & I are happily married, we have kids, and neither of us have ever committed adultery. I'm just trying to figure out how my decision to get a vasectomy will lead to pornography, the abuse of women, sex slavery, and an increase in STDs. None of those social ills are even remotely related to my vasectomy.

If the Church were genuinely committed to preventing abortions, you'd be distributing condoms far & wide. You'd rather see more abortions than compromise on birth control.

Quote: FrGamble

No.

Ok. I will assume you think the one true god Aton is not real. Now please let me know all about him, since you can't reject the one true god otherwise.

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He most definitely did not leave them alone, but he was even more assuredly not found in these blood-thirsty deities. Our Lady of Guadalupe was one way in which He made His presence known and changed that area forever.

I reiterate: think things through first. It's like this:

1) Human existed in the Americas for thousands of years.
2) Human sacrifices were part and parcel of many cultures for about as long
3) You claim the Holy Trio chose to appear only decades after European humans has been forcibly converting the local to Catholicism.

Therefore I see two choices: either your precious, all-loving god caused human sacrifices in the Americas by his own incomplete revelation, or he spared not a thought to the people of this continent.

A third alternative is that he hated them. Consider, he sent the woman he committed adultery with to the Americas, after the Spaniards had 1) instituted a brutal occupation and 2) spread diseases against which the natives had no defenses. Both this events killed millions of people. The Spaniards didn't know the germ theory of disease. Jehovah should know it. And all he could do was reinforce the idea of conversion.

He really must have had it in for the poor Aztecs and Mexica.

Given how Latin America has fared since then, I could make the case your deity isn't too hot on them even now.

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As you know Central America did not have a monopoly on these blood thirsty demons/deities or human sacrifice. The story of Isaac was YHWH showing how very different He was.

The way I read the Bible, when Jehovah is thirsty for blood he goes and gets it by himself. The ten plagues, the murder of innocent Egyptian first-born sons, the tantrum at Mt. Sinai, and that is only during a brief interval. There's plenty more before and after.

Quote: FrGamble

God has always given us a perfectly natural and reliable method to control how many children a couple could have. It is called Natural Family Planning, look it up. It is amazing and just as effective as any unnatural contraceptive.

How good is it for allowing a couple to have sex whenever they want?




I'm waiting.

Besides, it doesn't work without a great deal of effort, calculation and measurements. You can take my word for it, that it's not very romantic to be handed a thermometer and a calendar when one proposes making love.

And it's not as reliable as real contraceptives.

It's really the church's way of saying "Since we can't have it, we're going to ruin it for everyone." Which is pretty much what you've been proposing concerning marriage, only stated "Since we can't keep it exclusive to opposite sex couples, let's take it away from all."

Quote: Nareed

How good is it for allowing a couple to have sex whenever they want?

You are right it requires conversation and respect for the other person, I think what you are looking for is called rape.

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Besides, it doesn't work without a great deal of effort, calculation and measurements.

Again you have obviously not practiced it but the couples I know who do, both religious and not, say that it doesn't effect the mood at all. Also the fact that it takes effort is not a bad thing. Making love is an amazing and awesome gift from God maybe we should think a little bit more about and be a little prepared.

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And it's not as reliable as real contraceptives.

It is every bit as reliable as unnaturally pumping your body full of hormones or inserting sharp plastic devices into your uterus.

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It's really the church's way of saying "Since we can't have it, we're going to ruin it for everyone." Which is pretty much what you've been proposing concerning marriage, only stated "Since we can't keep it exclusive to opposite sex couples, let's take it away from all."

What? To steal a tactic of yours this sounds like you are saying, chesses floats up high with blue motorcycles. It makes no sense.

Quote: FrGamble

You are right it requires conversation and respect for the other person, I think what you are looking for is called rape.

Somewhere in the recesses of your religion-addled mind does it occur to you a COUPLE is made up of two people? Does it?

Get out of my life and stay out. I've nothing more to say to you.

Quote: reno

If the Church were genuinely committed to preventing abortions, you'd be distributing condoms far & wide. You'd rather see more abortions than compromise on birth control.

I'll never forget a mission trip I went on to Zimbabwae. I saw all these billboards promoting faithfulness to your wife going into the city. I thought wow the Church is really making an effort here to stem the stop of AIDS. Some of the places I was working in were 80-90% adults infected with HIV. Anyway when we got to talk to a government official (this was back when you could actually do this) we asked what they were doing to stop the spread of AIDS. He asked if we had seen all the billboards coming into the city? They were government run advertisements and they were plastered over the safe-sex, use a condom ads. Why? Because they were finding that promoting condom use promoted sex and gave men a false sense of security that they could get no one pregnant and could not get any diseases.

Promoting the use of condoms will not prevent abortions or significantly decrease them. If the Church were genuinely committed to preventing abortions we would be preaching a message of chastity, self-respect, woman's dignity, and self-control far and wide! I'd be happy to compromise on birth control if it would save a human life, the sad fact is it will not.

Quote: Nareed

That is a low, cheap shot. I said COUPLE

Somewhere ins the recesses if your religion-addled mind does it occur to you a COUPLE is made up of two people? Does it?

Get out of my life and stay out. I've nothing more to say to you.

Sorry about the strong comments but many including myself have been touched by COUPLE violence, DATING violence, or DOMESTIC violence. You can very easily be raped by a spouse, partner, or significant other especially if you want to have sex anytime you want.

Quote: FrGamble

I'd be happy to compromise on birth control if it would save a human life, the sad fact is it will not.

Source? Do you have any scientific evidence to back this up?

Of course birth control prevents abortions. I'm shocked you would argue otherwise. These statistics on effectiveness seem about right to me.

Quote: FrGamble

Making love is an amazing and awesome gift from God

No it's not, it's a biological function. Just
like it is for goats and bears and everything
that procreates. Making it 'special' is the
problem, not the solution. Making it special
is what leads to inhibitions and sexual
dysfunction, like addiction to pornography.

Like everything in life, you get out of sex what
you put into it. You can be free and easy about
it, or you can be uptight and phobic, which seems
to be what the Church teaches. It's a fact that twice
as many Christians are addicted to porn than non
Christians. Psychologists say there is a direct link
to being raised to think any sexual gratification
outside of marriage is a sin. For many this adds
a new level to viewing porn, that it's inherently
bad and evil and the feeling that gives you makes
you want to come back for more.

It's a vicious circle, they more you tell someone they
can't do something that comes naturally, like masturbation,
the more they want to do it. As usual, the Church has
it all backwards.

Quote: reno

Source? Do you have any scientific evidence to back this up?

Of course birth control prevents abortions. I'm shocked you would argue otherwise. These statistics on effectiveness seem about right to me.

When practiced perfectly the NFP method of planning pregnancies is just as effective as other forms of unnatural contraceptives research .

The safe-sex campaign does just that. It teaches people that sex is safe and can be even done for recreation. This mindset is what directly leads to pornography and the other ills of society including abortion. Sex can be just as addictive as anything else and when someone doesn't have access to artificial contraception it leads to unsafe sex and abuse.

By the way sex is not just some biological function. "you and me baby we're nothing than mammals, let's do it like they do it on the Discovery channel" is the most evil song lyrics I have ever heard. Sex or "making love" is meant to be a spiritual thing. A uniting of loving committed man and woman that strengthens their love for each other. A one night stand or hook-up sex is just plain wrong with a capital W!