Was Jesus God?

Quote: boymimbo

Sigh. I read this and just laugh because clearly, Nareed, you are so far into the belief that the church is evil that nothing that Fr (or anyone else) says will sway you.

I hope you have a nice laugh when you read about laws trampling the civil rights of LGBT people, or when they're beaten, imprisoned or killed in the loving Christian nations in Africa.

Quote: FrGamble

I agree that there are far worse things going on affecting our society than homosexuals having sex.

And yet what gets you all worked up is the recognition of civil same sex marriage, not the way government uses fear of terror to invade privacy, or the plight of Middle Eastern refuges in Europe and America, just to name two much worse things.

Did you see a mote in someone's eye?

Quote: rxwine

I take a different view. Even when something is not practicing evil, once you get into "magical thinking" you could potentially end up anywhere.

When anything is possible due to a new magical thought or interpretation, any evil can be justified.

Will certain religions always remain benign? Christians and Buddhists have both been violent. Hindus as well. Islam is just the feature at the moment.

If an inspired message comes again (such as what started the Mormons) who knows where it leads.

So, I reject all of it on that basis, even if some of it is good.

Your argument fall apart when you bring two people into the equation that were not motivated by God: Stalin and Hitler. Both justified evil and killed off millions for economical and racist reasons that had nothing to do with God's message or anything that was written in a text.

Most Christians are working with inspired messages everyday, and that is Matthew 22:36-40 (King James Version):

"36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

Or this phrase:
“O You who believe! Enter absolutely into peace. Do not follow in the footsteps of satan. He is an outright enemy to you.” (Holy Quran: 2, 208)

Quote: boymimbo

"36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

That's a terrible basis for an ethical system, not to mention the second clause contradicts the first.

1) There is no god, so spending any time, effort, energy, thought, breath, etc. "loving" his is a waste of time, effort, energy, thought, breath, etc.

2) Even if there was a god of some sort, what would it need with adulation and adoration? A healthy self-esteem benefits from recognition, yes, but not flattery. Further, an all-powerful god would need nothing outside of itself. So it's still futile.

3) Even if somehow an all-powerful, non-existent entity could benefit from adoration (and I really don't see how this is possible), what would be in it for the people who offer it?

4) Love has to have a basis, and in cases other than immediate family it has to be earned (for the immediate family there are biological imperatives involved, and that's a complex subject). To give it away indiscriminately cheapens it and any people involved.

5) What does "love your neighbor as yourself" mean? Should I get my neighbor involved in cooking? How about helping them develop knowledge of history, sciences, aviation and football? Should I get them to read science fiction? Conversely, if my neighbor loves me as he does himself, should he do what it takes to "save" me (from whom??) even if that causes me to be miserable and depressed?

6) how can you take something as complex as ethics and boil it down to 2 rather vague points? You can't even reduce it to several dozen nuanced points.

7) If you love a god with "all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind," what is left for your neighbor? All thy indifference and all thy lungs?

20 nations in Africa have a population of over 75% Christianity. These are each country's legal status towards homosexual acts. 8 of these countries have a legal status for homosexuals. Some of the states below declare themselves as secular. Work is needed obviously in these countries.

Angola (secular): Terrible
Central African Republic: Legal
Democratic Republic of Congo (secular): Legal
Congo (secular): Legal
Equatorial Guinea: Legal
Sao Tome and Principe: Legal
Burundi (secular): Illegal
Kenya: Illegal
Malawi: Illegal, not enforced
Reunion: Legal
Rwanda (secular): Legal
Seychelles: Legal for females, illegal for males
Uganda (secular): Terrible
Zambia: Illegal
Lesotho: Legal
Namibia (secular): Illegal, not enforced
South Africa (secular): Legal
Swaziland: Legal for females, illegal for males
Zimbabwe: Legal for females, illegal for males
Cape Verge (secular): Legal
Liberia (secular): Illegal

Quote: Nareed

That's a terrible basis for an ethical system, not to mention the second clause contradicts the first.

1) There is no god, so spending any time, effort, energy, thought, breath, etc. "loving" his is a waste of time, effort, energy, thought, breath, etc.

2) Even if there was a god of some sort, what would it need with adulation and adoration? A healthy self-esteem benefits from recognition, yes, but not flattery. Further, an all-powerful god would need nothing outside of itself. So it's still futile.

3) Even if somehow an all-powerful, non-existent entity could benefit from adoration (and I really don't see how this is possible), what would be in it for the people who offer it?

4) Love has to have a basis, and in cases other than immediate family it has to be earned (for the immediate family there are biological imperatives involved, and that's a complex subject). To give it away indiscriminately cheapens it and any people involved.

5) What does "love your neighbor as yourself" mean? Should I get my neighbor involved in cooking? How about helping them develop knowledge of history, sciences, aviation and football? Should I get them to read science fiction? Conversely, if my neighbor loves me as he does himself, should he do what it takes to "save" me (from whom??) even if that causes me to be miserable and depressed?

6) how can you take something as complex as ethics and boil it down to 2 rather vague points? You can't even reduce it to several dozen nuanced points.

7) If you love a god with "all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind," what is left for your neighbor? All thy indifference and all thy lungs?

Very literal interpretation. I deserved that. I don't think there's anything wrong with the central tenet: "Love".

1) Disagree, but I have no proof.
2) Love <> adolation and adoration.
3) Obedience and service to Him in performing good acts that are borne out of love for Him.
4) Love is an emotion and is expressed through good acts and prayers. It prohibits evil and violence towards others.
5) It means treating others as you would treat yourselves, with compassion. It doesn't mean teaching people your interests.
6) All ethics and laws should rest on these two central tenets. Of course there will be issues where love for God <> love for neighbors which leads to a great deal of pain and struggles.
7) Christians struggle with that statement because it always demands more than we can possibly give.

Of course Fr can provide a better explanation.

Quote: boymimbo

20 nations in Africa have a population of over 75% Christianity. These are each country's legal status towards homosexual acts. 8 of these countries have a legal status for homosexuals. Some of the states below declare themselves as secular.

Shouldn't 75% of the populations in those countries be up in arms over such things? Or at least vociferously condemning them? And if not, shouldn't their leaders be urging them to?

Or do you suppose it helps more to call same sex couples "unnatural" and make sure they never can adopt children or get the civil rights involved in marriage?

Quote: boymimbo

2) Love <> adolation and adoration.

No, but "love with all your soul, heart, etc," goes well past adulation. If I were not polite I'd call it ass-kissing.

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5) It means treating others as you would treat yourselves, with compassion. It doesn't mean teaching people your interests.

That's even worse.

I've no doubt many people use such "love" to compel others to conform to their beliefs, practices, ideals, notions, etc. Not to mention passing oppressive laws because they are "moral" and steer people into the "right" path.

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6) All ethics and laws should rest on these two central tenets.

Love something that doesn't exist. Love the ax-murderer as myself.

Pass.

You want some simple tenet for ethics?

Respect other people's judgment and the choices they make for themselves based on it.
Do not live for the sake of others, nor ask that others live for your sake.
Everyone is different. While there is a lot of overlap and there are even some universal traits, there is no single way of doing things, or one path in life that applies to everyone without exception.

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Of course Fr can provide a better explanation.

This is an example of where I decide I'm better off not posting something.

Quote: Nareed

Shouldn't 75% of the populations in those countries be up in arms over such things? Or at least vociferously condemning them? And if not, shouldn't their leaders be urging them to?

Absolutely. I think it's a function of old thinking which is progressing. It will take time. Take heart Nareed that there is one Christian (me) who is with you. I believe strongly in the separation of church and state and granting LGBT equal rights and treatments. Mind you that the separation of church and state is not sanctioned in the bible yet I support that separation nonetheless as being necessary to support freedom, including religious freedom and freedom of expression, which also protects us.

I do not and cannot support church sanctioned gay marriage but I fully support the legal status of two people joining in civil unions recognized by the governments.

Quote: Nareed

No, but "love with all your soul, heart, etc," goes well past adulation. If I were not polite I'd call it ass-kissing.

I think you just did!

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I've no doubt many people use such "love" to compel others to conform to their beliefs, practices, ideals, notions, etc. Not to mention passing oppressive laws because they are "moral" and steer people into the "right" path.

When you develop a relationship with someone of course there will be arguments to compel each other into their way of thinking. That is called relationship. For me it means respecting other people's beliefs. There is nothing wrong with trying, but of course it is wrong to force.

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Love something that doesn't exist. Love the ax-murderer as myself.

Fair enough.

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You want some simple tenet for ethics?
Respect other people's judgment and the choices they make for themselves based on it.
Do not live for the sake of others, nor ask that others live for your sake.
Everyone is different. While there is a lot of overlap and there are even some universal traits, there is no single way of doing things, or one path in life that applies to everyone without exception.

Agreed. Compassion over religion.