Original Sin?

About a thousand years later girls who came home without their panties could claim to have been waylaid by the mischievous Incubus.
Sort of a friendly rather than devilish demon somewhat akin to Casper, the Friendly Ghost.

Evidence? I swear. If a girl were lying naked in the hot sun guzzling from a giant Margarita Magnum, the Padre and EvenBob would discuss evidence and faith.

I don't know but if you put yourself in Mary's shoes what would you say? If it was true and the Angel Gabriel appeared to you and told you the news that you would miraculously conceive and bear a son, that seems like a message you would stay true to no matter what. Can you imagine the ridicule and embarrassment she must have had to face, from Joseph first, her family, and the entire small knit community at the time? The ridicule she experienced would make Nareed's an Evenbob's look like nothing. Yet she never wavered from her story, nor did all the people who knew her. If something else would have happened don't you think she would eventually say so, if for no other reason than to free herself from persecution and shame? Also don't you think we would have heard from someone else, anyone in the ancient world who doubted her story? Instead as I've mentioned it was not just Mary, but everyone unanimously who believed from the beginning that there was something very special about her and the birth of Jesus.

Quote: FrGamble

I don't know but if you put yourself in Mary's shoes what would you say?

Back then the penalty for adultery was being beaten to death with stones. Of course I'd have invented a pious lie to cover infidelity as well.

But I wonder, just how long were Mary and Joseph married before they were able to have marital relations?

Quote: FrGamble

If it was true and the Angel Gabriel appeared to you and told you the news that you would miraculously conceive and bear a son, that seems like a message you would stay true to no matter what.

My first thought would be to wonder what I've been smoking.

Perhaps I'm the only one bothered by theists holding up the symbols and characters in their belief as awesomely impressive to everyone. To me it's like telling me "If Captain Kirk showed at your door with Mr. Spock and begged you to join the crew of the Enterprise...." Except I don't think this would impress anyone, because even die-hard Trekkies know Kirk and Spock aren't real people.

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Also don't you think we would have heard from someone else, anyone in the ancient world who doubted her story?

Hell, no. You need to remember the common, everyday, thinking back then was very different from what it is now. Remember, too, the Hebrews believed themselves to be God's "uniquely chosen people." They'd expect miracles from the offices of Jehova. The Romans got miracles from their gods (or rather thought they did), and that wasn't even their specialty.

Even today, when someone comes through ok from surgery, people speak of miracles and thank God. This when they know full well the patient received attention from an experienced surgeon, a highly trained OR team, and the efforts of a quality hospital staff and its facilities. How much more likely were people to believe in miracles in the time of Augustus?

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Instead as I've mentioned it was not just Mary, but everyone unanimously who believed from the beginning that there was something very special about her and the birth of Jesus.

Again, am I supposed to be impressed by this? No one disputed the claim that John Sheridan(*) was the Nexus in the war against the Shadows, or that he died in Z'ah'doom(sp?) but rose back from the dead to lead his people to victory and freedom. But I repeat myself.



(*) If John Sheridan begged me to replace Delenn in every way, I'd be impressed ;) (and eager)

Quote: Nareed

Hell, no. You need to remember the common, everyday, thinking back then was very different from what it is now. Remember, too, the Hebrews believed themselves to be God's "uniquely chosen people." They'd expect miracles from the offices of Jehova. The Romans got miracles from their gods (or rather thought they did), and that wasn't even their specialty.

Look again where this miracle happened. Outside of the synagogue officials control and off the radar in a backwater town far away from Jerusalem. This would not be the expected miracle anyone expected from YHWH. They believed, falsely, that their miracle was going to be like the Romans' - a militant powerful Messiah/King to free them from oppression. Nobody at the time would believe a poor girl from Nazareth would give birth to the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

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Again, am I supposed to be impressed by this? No one disputed the claim that John Sheridan(*) was the Nexus in the war against the Shadows, or that he died in Z'ah'doom(sp?) but rose back from the dead to lead his people to victory and freedom. But I repeat myself.

Am I even supposed to understand this? I think you are too into your science fiction and your default is to think anything out the ordinary is fiction and not science. How can you believe all space, time, and matter can be compressed into something smaller than the period at the end of this sentence and not see the possibility of God becoming one of us through a virgin's womb?.

Quote: FrGamble

I don't know but if you put yourself in Mary's shoes what would you say? If it was true and the Angel Gabriel appeared to you and told you the news.

In order to be a Christian, you have to
throw off the era of science and pretend
you're still the common superstitious
dullard that was prevalent 2000 years
ago. That's why people giggle now
when somebody seriously talks about
virgin births. Nobody really believes
it, it's just part of the overall Jesus myth.

I giggle when someone says to be a Christian you have to be anti-scientific or superstitious. What can you tell me is more mystifying believing in a virgin birth or creation from nothing? Do you find the mystery of a fine-tuned universe or the laws of nature funny? How about the development of consciousness and the discussion about where that came from, does that too cause you to guffaw? We should giggle and laugh out loud about how amazing and overwhelmingly awesome and mysterious our lives and our universe is. However, we should do so not to mock or in disbelief, but in joy!

Quote: FrGamble

I giggle when someone says to be a Christian you have to be anti-scientific or superstitious. !

Yup, we can all agree Christianity is nothing
but giggles, followed by guffaws, and more
than a few belly laughs. At least we agree
on something.

It is a joyful life indeed!

Quote: FrGamble

Look again where this miracle happened.

Because out in the sticks people are less superstitious?

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Am I even supposed to understand this?

Now you know how I feel when you say "God loves you."

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I think you are too into your science fiction and your default is to think anything out the ordinary is fiction and not science.

Quite the contrary. I have a keen grasp of the difference between fiction and reality. Science fiction in particularly either uses or misuses science to make a point, or develop a background, or a plot device, etc.

Many people condemn the myths of a religion for being derivative. They fail to see that all myths build upon older myths. I'm not saying whether this is wrong or right, only that it's pervasive. But the very fact that myth-makers copy each other lets me spot a myth at once.

You know, perhaps the biggest change a time traveler could make would be to go back to the very beginnings of civilization and introduce the idea of fiction.

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How can you believe all space, time, and matter can be compressed into something smaller than the period at the end of this sentence and not see the possibility of God becoming one of us through a virgin's womb?.

We've seen hideously large amounts of matter and energy compressed into infinitesimal volumes at the heart of every black hole. We've seen the universe's continued and accelerating expansion. We've seen the microwave background radiation. From that it's easy to suppose the whole universe could easily fit into an infinitesimal volume. There is evidence. Tangible, measurable evidence.

We've yet to see a god. We've yet to see a mammal, let alone a human, conceive young without genetic material from a male. We've yet to see a god inserting himself into a virgin's womb.