Original Sin?

Failed Church of the Lord, I like the sound of that. It sounds like a Church that would welcome me as a sinner myself. The old saying is that if you find a perfect Church don't join it because it will no longer be perfect. If we all lost our value, dignity, and worth the moment we became hypocrites than we would all be as worthless as dirt (oh wait, that doesn't bother you, I forgot). Anyway, the point is whether you are a Christian or just a good guy named Bob trying to live a good life we have all done things (sins you might say) that make us hypocrites. However, that does not mean you are worthless in fact my God would say that despite your mistakes you are still precious and loved. This is the Good News.

Quote: FrGamble

Failed Church of the Lord, I like the sound of that. It sounds like a Church that would welcome me as a sinner myself. .

I like how you just shrug off every point
I made. Make a joke out of it. The Catholic
Church isn't about 'saving' people, they
just use Jesus as an excuse to exist. They
are about as close to the life Jesus lived
as Rockefeller was. He was also a god
fearing Christian, never swore, smoked,
drank, played cards or cheated on his wife.
He owned the front pew in his Baptist
church and his family was there every
Sunday. He was an elder and on the church
board. He was a devout follower of Jesus.

He robbed and ruined people during the
week and chalked it up to doing business.
He went to church with a clear conscious.
He built hospitals and universities that
still exist today. In his mind he was a model
Christian.

Sound familiar? See the pattern here? See
why us on the outside don't trust the Xtions?
They use god and Jesus to do as they wish,
not unlike the Mafia does. And look who the
Mafia goes to for consolation and forgiveness.
The circle is complete.

I was absolutely not joking. There is a savior of the world and I, nor you or anyone else, is Him. None of us are perfect and if you were expecting me or the Church to be perfect just because we believe in Jesus Christ then you have been mislead. I am a better man because of Jesus. Through Jesus I know I am loved and that love motivates me to be more like Jesus every day, but I fall short. It sounds like this Rockefeller person tried but failed as well. I imagine you recognize that you have tried and failed. Do you see the pattern here? This is humanity under the burden of original sin.

By the way, I do find it a little ironic that it is often the atheists who don't even believe in sin that seem to be so caught up and concerned with it.

Quote: FrGamble

By the way, I do find it a little ironic that it is often the atheists who don't even believe in sin that seem to be so caught up and concerned with it.

Neither caught up or concerned at all. Just
interested in why people let a concept run
their lives.

Quote: FrGamble

I imagine you recognize that you have tried and failed.

I took pause at this. I really have no benchmark
that I measure myself against, so I don't feel
like a failure at all. I fail at 'things', like not
getting enough pet food and running out, or
putting off doing something till it's too late.
But those aren't really failures, they're just quirks.
I don't emulate anybody, so my actions are my
own and I do the best I can, so why should I
feel bad about it. For some reason this isn't
good enough for Christians, they have to set a
high mark and then beat themselves up over
it when they fail.

That's way too masochistic for me. Why be miserable
when it's so easy not to be. Just accept who you
are and live your life. You keep using the word
'perfect' when it comes to human behavior. Why
would it even come up, perfect doesn't exist when
it comes to behavior, it's an oxymoron. Why strive
for something that you can't even define, let alone
achieve.

Quote: Evenbob

I took pause at this. I really have no benchmark
that I measure myself against, so I don't feel
like a failure at all. I fail at 'things', like not
getting enough pet food and running out, or
putting off doing something till it's too late.
But those aren't really failures, they're just quirks.
I don't emulate anybody, so my actions are my
own and I do the best I can, so why should I
feel bad about it. For some reason this isn't
good enough for Christians, they have to set a
high mark and then beat themselves up over
it when they fail.

That's way to masochistic for me. Why be miserable
when it's so easy not to be. Just accept who you
are and live your life. You keep using the word
'perfect' when it comes to human behavior. Why
would it even come up, perfect doesn't exist when
it comes to behavior, it's an oxymoron. Why strive
for something that you can't even define, let alone
achieve.

I think you nailed why some of us express anger at the Church.

What matters, or what should matter, is the underlying message. I feel the church sort of bastardizes this message.

For example - good and bad. The church addresses this. They call it "sin". They say you should resist when possible, repent when not. The message is just, it's noble - "Try to be good, apologize when you can't". No sane person would critique this, it's a good lesson, a decent way to act. But then comes the "fluff". It's not good enough to just try and apologize, you have to do so because God. You have to ask His forgiveness. You have to confess, you have to perform penance, you have to do all this wacky juke and jive that has nothing to do with the message. And if you don't? HELLFIRE FOR ALL ETERNITY!!

Buddhists have weird stuff, too. They have karma. Ask a Buddhist about karma and you'll get a story that's suspiciously supernatural, as if there is some cosmic force of balance that will straighten itself out (think Gambler's Fallacy). That idea doesn't sit well with me either, I don't have the ability to accept the supernatural. But when I argue, I'd say "it's not supernatural, it's quite basic. If you act an ass, you'll be treated an ass. 'You are what you repeatedly do', so if you lie, cheat, and steal, you will attract those who lie, cheat, and steal. This attraction isn't cosmic, it's completely rational. You reap what you sow". And the Buddhist will smile and nod and say "Ah. You get it".

There is no attachment of the weirdness, of the suspicious. You needn't pray to idols or perform rituals, they are not important. You must simply know the lesson and act upon it. Isn't that beautiful? Isn't that the whole point?

Christ has come to stop us from beating ourselves up over our mistakes and failures. He came to say that you are still loved and always will be loved despite our imperfections. The problem with just accepting who you are and living your life is that this philosophy is not motivating and doesn't move us forward. One of my favorite lines is, "God loves you just the way you are, but too much to leave you that way." Let's throw away the word perfect and replace it with "better". We could always be better and this is what we should strive for. it is easy to define and recognize, let alone achieve. This way the message of Christ's love and forgiveness is not a get out of jail free card nor is it an excuse people use to be mediocre. God came to help us reach towards the fulfillment of our potential we feel as His amazing creation and overcome the weakness in our nature towards selfishness or laziness.

Quote: FrGamble

Christ has come to stop us from beating ourselves up over our mistakes and failures. .

So the Church institutionalized guilt as a
virtue. The more guilty you feel over your
failings, the more virtuous you are. It's
the Church's job to constantly make you
feel guilty by pointing out your faults.

It's a never ending circular process. The more
you try to live the impossible life of Christ,
the more guilt you feel, and the more virtuous
the Church lets you know you are. It's set up
like a hamsters exercise wheel, you go round
and round on it and never get anywhere because
there's nowhere to get to.

It's quite ingenious and quite diabolical. Get at a
person early enough in life, instill the insidious
guilt in them, and you have them hooked forever.
Because guilt is a useless emotion, it solves nothing,
it accomplishes nothing, it's non productive. And
once you have it, you're stuck, there's no place to
go. So you go back to the Church where you got
it, and they heap even more on you.

Looking at it from the outside, I have to admire the
simplicity of it. As a corporation, you have to do
almost nothing to keep your customers coming back.
They have no choice.

So if Christ died for our sins - and sinning is unavoidable (because even thinking of sinning is equal to committing the sin), trying to lead a sin free life is a slap in JC's face for, if we did not win, he died in vain

I really don't know how to be more clear. Jesus came to set us free from guilt. His love frees us from our sins and from the guilt and shame that come from them. The Church did not institutionalize guilt, it helped give us a way to be freed from it. No one is asking you to live a impossibly perfect life of Christ. You once said you were trying to live the best you can, how could anyone ask more than that? With God's help the best you can do can keep getting better, but you never have to worry about being perfect. Christianity gets you out of the hamster wheel so you can start climbing the mountain of virtue and goodness. Without forgiveness we enter into a cycle of repeated sin that either starts to destroy our self image or we start accepting our failure can call it the best we can do.

Guilt is a natural emotion, like anger. It is meant to instill in us a desire to fix something. Whether it is a mistake we made or justice that needs to be done, those emotions are meant to move us to do something. It solves nothing on its own but spurs us on to do something about what is making us guilty or angry. Again the Church is a place where you can go to be freed from guilt. Church is a place where crosses are lifted not placed upon you. I wish you could see the people's faces after confession and how happy they are at being forgiven and loved. They have rediscovered who they are as a precious child of God and have been motivated by God's love (N.B. NOT by guilt!!!) to go and sin no more. So please recognize your mistaken understanding of the Church, but know you are always loved and forgiven; keep trying your best and trying to make your best better - and go and sin no more.

Quote: FrGamble

Guilt is a natural emotion, like anger. It is meant to instill in us a desire to fix something.

Ed Burns puts it in perspective: