Original Sin?

Quote: Nareed

We've yet to see a god inserting himself into a virgin's womb.

He did it with Mary, she said so. That's
good enough for most people, quit
being so stubborn.

Quote: Nareed

Now you know how I feel when you say "God loves you."

So that's how it feels? Well it did kind of peak my interest and to see who these people or things were so that's a good thing. In fact I'm soon going to take a few days off and will read "Canticle for Leibowitz". Any other science fiction you would recommend for me? God love ya.

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Quite the contrary. I have a keen grasp of the difference between fiction and reality. Science fiction in particularly either uses or misuses science to make a point, or develop a background, or a plot device, etc.

Many people condemn the myths of a religion for being derivative. They fail to see that all myths build upon older myths. I'm not saying whether this is wrong or right, only that it's pervasive. But the very fact that myth-makers copy each other lets me spot a myth at once.

Almost as if building to a crescendo.

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We've seen hideously large amounts of matter and energy compressed into infinitesimal volumes at the heart of every black hole... From that it's easy to suppose the whole universe could easily fit into an infinitesimal volume. There is evidence. Tangible, measurable evidence.

Correction - we've observed the effects of these hideously large amounts of matter and energy in black holes, but we have never seen them because even light cannot escape them. Likewise we have observed the effects of dark matter but we have not by definition seen them. While you or I have not seen God we have seen and observed the effects in human history, especially in the person of Jesus Christ. The immense effect this one human person has had on human history speaks to the reality of who He is. There is evidence. Tangible, measurable evidence of the same nature as the center of black holes or dark matter that we have seen God and He was born of a virgin and walked among us.

Quote: FrGamble

So that's how it feels?

Maybe. I usually feel more like someone is saying to me "Purple lunch dinosaur noon." You know, I understand the words, but not how they fit together.

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Well it did kind of peak my interest and to see who these people or things were so that's a good thing. In fact I'm soon going to take a few days off and will read "Canticle for Leibowitz". Any other science fiction you would recommend for me?

I've never read that one. If you want a really good story dealing with ethical dilemmas, try Asimov's "The End of Eternity." If you're in the mood for clever solutions to intractable problems, and a BIG MACGUFFIN, try Asimov's "The Gods Themselves." If you want to exercise a sense of wonder and see a tribalistic society deal with advanced technology, try Larry Niven's "The Integral Trees."

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God love ya.

Sixty blue run keyboard.

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Correction - we've observed the effects of these hideously large amounts of matter and energy in black holes, but we have never seen them because even light cannot escape them.

No, we've seen them. We can observe the event horizon and measure the mass of the singularity. By "see" I can mean "measured essential properties of the thing itself." Seeing doesn't begin and end with light visible to the human eye.

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Likewise we have observed the effects of dark matter but we have not by definition seen them.

I didn't mention dark matter, which we're not even sure exists. I spoke of the expansion of the universe, which has been measured, and the microwave background radiation, which was predicted by preceding theory.

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While you or I have not seen God we have seen and observed the effects in human history,

Have you?

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The immense effect this one human person has had on human history speaks to the reality of who He is. There is evidence. Tangible, measurable evidence of the same nature as the center of black holes or dark matter that we have seen God and He was born of a virgin and walked among us.

1) Jesus' influence ended with a small group of true believers in Judea. The influence of his disciples, whom for all we know made changes to Jesus' ideology, was considerable but took decades to develop and spread.

2) Even if I were to grant that Jesus had a large influence, this does not prove he was the child of an extramarital supernatural relationship. See, I can prove what the gravity is at a black hole, but that doesn't prove there are three quarks inside a neutron.

Quote: FrGamble

So that's how it feels? .

God loves you, the original oxymoron.

Santa Clause, Elvis and The Beatles have had a pretty good effect on human history too. Madonna has a pretty good publicity agent as well. So you can't really argue that the size and persistence of the Bandwagon is proof that the cause is just. Its just a bandwagon like any other bandwagon.

Smoking, alcohol, facial hair, Crusades, Jihad, Corn Flakes.... they are all bandwagons.
Remember the Maine. A chicken in every pot. A good five cent cigar. A nickle beer.

Wasn't it comparing themselves to Jesus that kind of ended the Beatles?

Quote: Nareed

Seeing doesn't begin and end with light visible to the human eye.

Very true and an important thing to remember.

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1) Jesus' influence ended with a small group of true believers in Judea. The influence of his disciples, whom for all we know made changes to Jesus' ideology, was considerable but took decades to develop and spread.

2) Even if I were to grant that Jesus had a large influence, this does not prove he was the child of an extramarital supernatural relationship. See, I can prove what the gravity is at a black hole, but that doesn't prove there are three quarks inside a neutron.

I don't know about the quarks but I do know if it quacks like a duck the evidence is pointing towards it being one.

Quote: FrGamble

Wasn't it comparing themselves to Jesus that kind of ended the Beatles?

Wasn't that early on in their run, before they lost Brian Epstein? They hung on several years beyond that.

Yoko broke up the Beatles. Everyone knows that ;)

Quote: FrGamble

Wasn't it comparing themselves to Jesus that kind of ended the Beatles?

Never underestimate the ignorant masses turning on those who fail to admire the Emperor's raiments, religious types like to have the loudest bandwagon around.

The pastors blog in the other thread is
a real resource of knowledge and
experience, especially the comments
section.

"Twenty years ago I made the same choice (atheism). I withdrew from a Christian Seminary and walked into a world that I didn't really know. I have since found that reality is a far more loving, ethical, and equal playing field than that of Christendom or any other religion-bound scenario of life."

I can't figure out why Christians think atheists
live some kind of awful life, without joy or
passion or ethics.