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Original Sin?
| December 30th, 2014 at 11:02:48 AM permalink | |
| Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25013 |
Oh, you don't have to do that and many many people don't. They lead miserable, unhappy, stressful lives because they fight their nature every minute of the day. Ever wonder why the Indians didn't have heart attacks at 40, weren't stressed out, had no need for mental institutions? They actively tried to live in harmony with the universe. Left to their own devices, that's what people naturally do. The native Hawaiians were the same way, till the missionaries arrived. A happier people they had never seen. Until they were told they were really awful sinners and needed to buy big doses of Jesus to straighten them out and get miserable like the rest of Christiandom. If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |
| December 30th, 2014 at 1:58:48 PM permalink | |
| FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
Again the discussion comes back to what is our fundamental nature. I believe that we are fundamentally good, but we need help to reach our potential and to live lives of kindness and generosity. When you say we are miserable because we fight against our nature, to me that means we are fighting to be mean and selfish and that does indeed make us miserable. What do you believe our fundamental nature is? This would explain why the Indians and native Hawaiians when living in harmony with themselves and the world lived good moral lives. Of course all these civilizations had rituals and rites to ask for and receive forgiveness when they sinned or made mistakes - it is common in every society. I find it a huge failure of the Christians in your life to give you such a negative impression of Christendom. I apologize on behalf of all my brothers and sisters. The Gospel is truly meant to be good news to confirm your goodness and forgive your failings. To recognize that you are a child of God unconditionally loved by God as witnessed to by the passion, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. There should be nothing that could make you happier - your life has meaning and you will live forever! “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
| December 30th, 2014 at 2:27:57 PM permalink | |
| Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25013 |
To be selfish. Spend time with a 2 year old, it's all about them. Sharing to survive comes naturally, as does cooperation. Our nature is to get along with others, or try to, anyway.
They had no sin, there is no such thing. They mostly had rituals for rites of passage, for someone who died, for marriage.
You can't do that, so I don't accept it. You can only apologize for what you have done, not others. What makes me angry at the Church, not at you, is they got away with so many heinous crimes against humanity for so long, and never had to pay for it. They were the judge jury and executioner. It's only in recent times, with modern laws, that they finally started paying a heavy price. The huge amount of cash they have paid out in the last 30 years, hush money, to keep from being sued by victims of an out of control clergy, has almost bankrupted them. If the Church had been held to account for all the atrocities it committed, when it committed them, it would have disappeared a thousand years ago. For a moment lets forget the well known crimes against humanity. Lets just consider what they did to so called witches. I was very interested in Wicca 20 years ago and knew some modern witches personally. They loathe and despise the Church for what it did to innocent members of their pagan religion for centuries and centuries. Padre, I don't hold you accountable, I believe you are sincere. But should we not hold the Nazis accountable for the Holocaust, for what they did to innocent people? And should we no hold the Church to the same standard for what they did in the name of their god? Pretending it never happened won't work. If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |
| December 30th, 2014 at 2:43:35 PM permalink | |
| aceofspades Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 83 Posts: 2019 | Padre - in all seriousness - do you know what indulgences were for each particular sin…back in the day? |
| December 30th, 2014 at 2:59:50 PM permalink | |
| Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25013 |
"Certain Bishops of the Catholic Church saw indulgences as a very good way to get rich, and it worked magnificently. Threaten an ignorant person with eternal burning, and he’ll give you some money to feel safe again. It got ridiculously out of hand from about 500 until Martin Luther spoke against it in his 95 Theses, in 1517. Indulgences are still given in the Catholic Church – some which remit part of the punishment owed for sin, and some which remit all. The most recent indulgences were granted in 2007 by Pope Benedict XVI, for people who took part in pilgrimages to Lourdes." If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |
| December 30th, 2014 at 3:41:13 PM permalink | |
| aceofspades Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 83 Posts: 2019 |
I was trying to find out about the actual monetary amount for each type of sin (was it a percentage of net worth? flat rate per type of sin?) |
| December 30th, 2014 at 7:44:32 PM permalink | |
| FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 | The practice of selling indulgences is an abuse of the faith and anyone who did such a thing was wrong. There is absolutely no way anything close to the sin Martin Luther was striving to reform happened anytime near the year 500 AD, you are about 1,000 years off. God's love has always been recognized to be indulgent beyond our greatest imaginations. Therefore by striving to grow in holiness, like through a pilgrimage to Lourdes, God's indulgent love can be promised to you. In no way can you pay for this free gift of God's love today. They are given in return for holy acts like reading the Bible for a half-hour or visiting a cemetery on All Soul's Day, visiting the sick or prisoners, etc... A key image that might help you to understand indulgences as they are practiced today is to think of a huge reservoir of God's grace that were gained through Christ's victory over sin and death. This reservoir holds more than we could all ever need, it is surplus, so infinitely indulgent and generous is God's love for us. When you strive for holiness and freedom from sin, God through His Church pours out abundant Grace upon you so that more than your forgiveness of guilt from sin you are also helped to free yourself from even the attachment from sin. Hope that is helpful. “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
| December 30th, 2014 at 7:50:17 PM permalink | |
| aceofspades Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 83 Posts: 2019 | what makes Lourdes so holy as compared to say, some random star billions of light years away…? |
| December 30th, 2014 at 8:00:50 PM permalink | |
| FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
Since it seems like in your answer you are already doubting yourself, I'll let it go. I think you have to wrestle with the idea that if our fundamental nature is to be selfish, as seen in 2 year olds, then why does sharing eventually come so naturally to us?
Come now, there was all kind of rituals to expel someone from the community, to welcome them back, to forgive sins, to appease the Great Spirit if mistakes were made. We all feel remorse for some of our actions or inaction and there have always been ways to free us from such destructive feelings.
I hear the voice of BeachBabs in my head saying whoever brings up the Holocaust first has lost the argument but I will ignore it because you make a good point. However, I wonder how if you won't accept my apology because it wasn't me who did you wrong - how can you hold the Church responsible for what no one currently alive in the Church has done to witches? It's kind of like condemning Germans for what the Nazis did. I'm not trying to pretend that the Church has not made awful mistakes in its long history, it did. In some ways this can get us back on track to the original theme of this thread. How can good things like the Church do such awful things like the burning of witches? When dealing with mankind, which make up the Church, we are capable of such amazing things like the creation of universities, hospitals, charities galore and also horrible destructive sins. How is this possible? It is because of original sin which weakens our original goodness and makes us easy prey for power grabs, greed, and pride. “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
| December 30th, 2014 at 8:32:59 PM permalink | |
| Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25013 |
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