Original Sin?

Quote: Evenbob

That's the first thing people say when they
hear this. Soil is very much alive, it contains
millions of living and formerly living things. Soil
has the spark of life all thru it, that's how it
nourishes plants and trees. You knew this,
you've probably never thought about it before.

http://arboretum.unl.edu/soil-its-alive

You were here today, padre. Did this post frighten
you away?

It did frighten me a little. I'm still wondering how you justify eating plants and animals who have this spark of life in them that is equal to us? You judge me as egotistical in my love for humanity when I say humans are more important than plants and other animals. Now it seems as if you've painted yourself in a corner. When I eat, or I should say IF I ever eat escargot, those snails have just as much right to life as I do according to your theory - who am I to deprive them of life for my own good? It seems that we are all egotistical human beings when we are really no more important than a slug.

While I am a little scared you seem to be saying that dirt is equal to us; it does jive with the Genesis account of God forming man from the dust of the earth.

Quote: FrGamble

It did frighten me a little. I'm still wondering how you justify eating plants and animals who have this spark of life in them that is equal to us?

You judge the spark of life, then? We,
living creatures, devour each other in
order to survive. What makes you
superior to the tiger that has you for
lunch.

Quote: FrGamble

You judge me as egotistical in my love for humanity when I say humans are more important than plants and other animals.

Absolutely. Religion is all about ego. Me Me Me.
Save me. You think animals don't grieve when
their young are killed? Or their mate? Or a dogs
master? What is that, if not an indication we are
all connected.

Quote: FrGamble

It seems that we are all egotistical human beings when we are really no more important than a slug.

Pretty much. The slug is here, doing what you're
doing, trying to survive day to day. Dog eat dog.
You're ego tells you you're important, the universe
doesn't support that theory. Again, you make a very
good lunch for a tiger, no questions asked.

Quote: FrGamble

While I am a little scared you seem to be saying that dirt is equal to us.

Of course. Deep down you know it. Life is
life, survival of the fittest. We're more fit
than dirt. At least most humans are.

Your line of thought really does frighten me as it should others as well. It's as if you are laying the groundwork to saying killing a human being is no worse than killing a cow and we do that all the time to help ourselves to food. This is scary stuff, you must realize that at least subjectively human beings are more important than other animals, plant, and dirt?!? It would help me if you answered my question about running into a burning zoo to save only one being with the "spark of life" and there was a human being in the zoo, who would you rescue?

Quote:

Absolutely. Religion is all about ego. Me Me Me.
Save me.

Religion is the opposite of ego. It is all about Us Us Us. Save us. And it is all about serving your fellow man.

Quote:

What is that, if not an indication we are
all connected.

The argument is not that we are all connected, I get that. The argument is that humans are unique and special.

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Pretty much. The slug is here, doing what you're
doing, trying to survive day to day. Dog eat dog.
You're ego tells you you're important, the universe
doesn't support that theory.

No the slug is not typing a message on the computer, thinking about what to preach at Mass, hoping his family is doing well, etc. He is not trying to survive he is surviving. It is not my ego telling me that human beings are important it is common sense and the universe. Look at us compared to the animals, are you not thinking that the universe is making it pretty clear we are special? Maybe you can back up your theory a little bit and tell me how the universe lets you know that everything with the "spark of life" is equal?

Quote:

Of course. Deep down you know it. Life is
life, survival of the fittest. We're more fit
than dirt. At least most humans are.

No, just about everything I do is to fight against the mentality that it is all about survival of the fittest. I speak for those who have no voice, I serve the poor and mentally challenged, I visit hospitals and nursing homes, I try to make sure that the fittest don't let their egos think they are more important than the weak so they don't take advantage of them.

Quote: FrGamble

Your line of thought really does frighten me as it should others as well.

Not only not frightened, but EB's very close to my own personal beliefs.

Our superiority is perception. I think we are superior because I am "we". I'm biased. I'd kill a bear because I need food and clothing. Am I "more important" than the bear? Damn right I am! But I wonder what the bear's view is?

You're just looking at this simplisticly. When we do that, we lose the point. See, watch... Catholicism is very dangerous. You can rape, pillage, steal, and kill. You really can. You shouldn't, of course, but if you do, all you have to do is feel actual regret, really TRY not to do it again, and simply ask for forgiveness. Just do that and you've a spot in heaven. Hell, you can spend eternity paying euchre with the people you killed!

That not Catholicism, not really. But when I simplyify, that's exactly what it is. And I miss the point.

That is not just simplistic it is actually incorrect. EB recently warned us against strawman arguments and unfortunately the one you used fits the bill.

If I taught that you were no different than that bear or the cockroach on the floor or that pile of dirt. Then the same way you treat these things - killing a bear because it is useful to you - is the same way you can treat me. That is sick and frightening. If I have simplified or missed the point you or EB are making please let me know, but I unfortunately feel like I understand it.

Quote: FrGamble

Religion is the opposite of ego. It is all about Us Us Us. Save us. And it is all about serving your fellow man.

Yes, that's a succinct exposition of what the problem is with religion.

Quote: FrGamble

It's as if you are laying the groundwork to saying killing a human being is no worse than killing a cow
.

Fundamentally, it's not. Make it fair, say it's
a lion. You are on the lions menu, he would
love to have you for lunch. Is that wrong?
Not to the lion, or to the impartial universe.
There are no ethics in nature, the universe is
not an ethical place. We invent the rules and
then religion pretends they exist outside of
us. They don't.

Quote: Face

Catholicism is very dangerous. You can rape, pillage, steal, and kill. You really can. You shouldn't, of course, but if you do, all you have to do is feel actual regret, really TRY not to do it again, and simply ask for forgiveness.

Indeed, that's why it's the mobsters favorite
religion. It offers a 'get out of hell free' card.
At no time are you told at confession that
you've sinned too many times, really bad ones,
and they tell you you're finished in god's eyes.
No forgiveness for you, kinda like the Soup Nazi
on Seinfeld.

Quote: FrGamble

just about everything I do is to fight against the mentality that it is all about survival of the fittest. I speak for those who have no voice, I serve the poor and mentally challenged, I visit hospitals and nursing homes, I try to make sure that the fittest don't let their egos think they are more important than the weak so they don't take advantage of them.

That's fine, but it doesn't change the truth. It
just makes it easier for those who have no chance
at handling the truth. Those that would not survive
if it wasn't for the kindness of the survivors. At
one time we couldn't afford such charity and we
let the weak perish. If we didn't, we ourselves would
not have made it. It's only been very recently in
human development that we've been able to be
so charitable, it hasn't been the norm in our history
by a long shot.

Quote: FrGamble

That is not just simplistic it is actually incorrect. EB recently warned us against strawman arguments and unfortunately the one you used fits the bill.

You're right. Sorry.

I guess it boils down to "why are we special? ", or perhaps, why are we more special?

That bear needs food, too. It needs water, shelter. It has its own family, its own desires, its own goals. It can fell a tree without tools. It can manage its own metabolism to survive both times of plenty and times of want. It can live 30 years in almost any climate and do so with only the body it was born in. That's pretty special. I can't do that.

An octopus can change color to match its surroundings. It can change shape. It can make its body as smooth as granite or as rough as coral. It can solve puzzles, open jars, figure out how to hunt. The most amazing thing of all is they cannot be taught this. There is no communication, there is no parental figure. Each one figures out all of this stuff individually. That is beyond amazing. I can't do that.

Why am I more special than that? Bias, and no more.

Quote: Face

Why am I more special than that? Bias, and no more.

Left to their own devices, humans usually
come to feeling equal to the animals
they hunt. The Indians certainly felt that
way, it was almost their religion. They
couldn't grasp the European Christians
attitude of utter disdain for the environment,
their slash and burn attitude. That's what
happens when you teach people they're
better than the food they kill to eat. They're
egos take over and get out of harmony
with their own nature.

I saw a Survivorman recently where he visited
a tribe in New Guinea that has had almost
no contact with the outside world. Their religion
is that all life is equal to their own, even plants.
Before they kill anything they give thanks to
the thing they're killing. The know the spark
of life is equal in all things, we aren't superior
to anything. We just think we are.