Original Sin?

Quote: FrGamble

So you know about Shoel and just forgot,.

What's to forget.

'To the Jews Sheol is simply the state or abode of the dead'

It has nothing to do with heaven
or hell or an afterlife. What did
you think it meant.

Did you read the Ehrman article?
He goes into detail of what
Jesus taught and it's not what
modern Xtianity says it is.

"There are over two billion Christians in the world, the vast majority of whom believe in heaven and hell. You die and your soul goes either to everlasting bliss or torment. The vast majority of these people naturally assume this is what Jesus himself taught. But that is not true. Neither Jesus, nor the Hebrew Bible he interpreted, endorsed the view that departed souls go to paradise or everlasting pain... Most people today would be surprised to learn that Jesus believed in a bodily eternal life here on earth, instead of eternal bliss for souls, but even more that he did not believe in hell as a place of eternal torment."

I thought you were thinking that Jews did not believe in life after death, but I am glad you remembered Sheol and the hope offered by the Messiah.

I did not read the Ehrman article but I know what he says and I think he is wrong. Of course almost all Scripture scholars do as well. He and you are of course free to interpret the teachings of Christ as you see fit. Please know though that I don't think you have a shred of evidence from the Bible, including the OT, to support what Ehrman is talking about. Again, all you have to do is read a Gospel and I promise you that you will change your mind.

Quote: FrGamble

I am glad you remembered Sheol

Why do you keep mentioning
Sheol. It's a nothing concept,
it's the nothing place Jews go
to after death.

Sheol (/ˈʃiːoʊl/ SHEE-ohl, /-əl/; Hebrew: שְׁאוֹל Šəʾōl), in the Hebrew Bible, is a place of darkness to which the dead go.

It's not heaven or hell, it's
a blank space.

"In most instances Sheol is simply a synonym for “tomb” or “grave.” It’s not a place where someone actually goes."

Quote:

I did not read the Ehrman article

Ehrman explains the gospels in
the spirit in which the authors
wrote them, not the way we would
read them in the 21st century.
They thought entirely differently
2000 years ago. For instance when
it says eternity in hell, it means you'll
be dead for eternity, not tortured
for eternity. To the Jewish Jesus
this was the ultimate punishment.

"The torments of hell were not preached by either Jesus or his original Jewish followers." https://time.com/5822598/jesus-really-said-heaven-hell/

No big deal about Sheol, after all I do believe the Messiah has come to free the people from there and bring them to Heaven. I just wanted to make sure you were more careful when you said Jews don't believe in life after death.

I am so glad we have Ehrman to explain to all of us the "spirit" in which the authors wrote them.

Quote: FrGamble

I just wanted to make sure you were more careful when you said Jews don't believe in life after death.

They don't!!! Nobody 'lives' in Sheol,
it's a place of total darkness and
nothingness. It's oblivion. It's what
Jesus talked about and believed,
like all other Jews at the time.

Quote:

I am so glad we have Ehrman to explain to all of us the "spirit" in which the authors wrote them.

So you believe Jesus went totally
against what he was taught as
a Jew, what every Jew believed,
that there was no afterlife, and
preached heavenly rewards
and punishment in hell forever.
Jesus absolutely did not believe
that, and never would have even
thought it. That would be totally
against Jewish scripture and
doctrine, as it still is today.

It's a historical fact the non Jewish
converted Xtions added all that
much later, borrowing it from the
Roman gods. This is what separated
Xtianity from the the other faux
messiahs of the time, it's how they
converted so many pagans. They
were familiar with the heaven/hell
myth, that's why it was added. It
was the hook that reeled people
in.

Quote: Evenbob

They don't!!! Nobody 'lives' in Sheol,
it's a place of total darkness and
nothingness. It's oblivion. It's what
Jesus talked about and believed,
like all other Jews at the time.

You are incorrect and I wish we wouldn't have driven away everyone else so someone could speak from a lived experience on this issue. Sheol is called the "abode of the dead". Why do you think that would mean no one lives there? Also when the Messiah comes justice will be done and punishment on the evildoers and peace to the righteous. Why is this so hard for you to understand?

Quote:

So you believe Jesus went totally
against what he was taught as
a Jew,

He didn't go against what He was taught but rather brought it to fulfillment.

Quote:

what every Jew believed,
that there was no afterlife,

Whoa there you are wrong. Who taught you this?

Quote:

It's a historical fact the ...

You'll have to excuse me if I don't think you can just say that like it is true. Bob, you have shown and continue to show that historical fact means something very different between you and me. I believe between you and historians as well.

Quote: FrGamble

You are incorrect

"The Hebrew Bible itself assumes that the dead are simply dead—that their body lies in the grave, and there is no consciousness, ever again. Sheol is simply a synonym for “tomb” or “grave.” It’s not a place where someone actually goes."

Quote:

Whoa there you are wrong. Who taught you this?

"Jewish teachers suggest that basically nothing happens after death but that souls and bodies will be resurrected when God decides it’s time.'

After death there is no heaven
or hell, just suspended animation
waiting for god to resurrect
them. This is what Jesus was
taught and believed. It's what
all Jews of his time believed.

Quote:

I don't think you can just say that like it is true.

"Jesus stood in a very long line of serious thinkers who have refused to believe that a good God would torture his creatures for eternity. The idea of eternal hell was very much a late comer on the Christian scene, developed decades after Jesus’ death and honed to a fine pitch in the preaching of fire and brimstone that later followers sometimes attributed to Jesus himself. But the torments of hell were not preached by either Jesus or his original Jewish followers; they emerged among later gentile converts."

Quote: Evenbob

"Jewish teachers suggest that basically nothing happens after death but that souls and bodies will be resurrected when God decides it’s time.'

After death there is no heaven
or hell, just suspended animation
waiting for god to resurrect
them.

So they went to a place to await the Resurrection. I can agree with this.

Quote:

"Jesus stood in a very long line of serious thinkers who have refused to believe that a good God would torture his creatures for eternity. The idea of eternal hell was very much a late comer on the Christian scene, developed decades after Jesus’ death and honed to a fine pitch in the preaching of fire and brimstone that later followers sometimes attributed to Jesus himself. But the torments of hell were not preached by either Jesus or his original Jewish followers; they emerged among later gentile converts."

I'm sorry to say that just about nothing in this quote is correct. Serious thinkers know there are consequences to our actions and that justice is required for evil. Jesus teaches clearly about Hell and Heaven. Again I don't know where you are getting this stuff but it is not true.

Quote: FrGamble

So they went to a place to await the Resurrection.

They don't 'go' anywhere. They
aren't waiting for anything, they're
dead. Jews are all about this life
being all there is.

Quote:

"Jesus stood in a very long line of serious thinkers who have refused to believe that a good God would torture his creatures for eternity. The idea of eternal hell was very much a late comer on the Christian scene, developed decades after Jesus’ death and honed to a fine pitch in the preaching of fire and brimstone that later followers sometimes attributed to Jesus himself. But the torments of hell were not preached by either Jesus or his original Jewish followers; they emerged among later gentile converts.

I'm sorry to say that just about nothing in this quote is correct. Again I don't know where you are getting this stuff but it is not true.

It's true, it's just goes against the
template your Church uses. It's
from the Ehrman article. If you
challenged him on it, he would
bury you in facts and logic and you
would lose the debate, just like most
do who oppose him. I've seen
Xtian 'experts' debate him just shut
down after the first few rounds. Ehrman
has a made this his life's work, he
has facts and logical proof for all
his findings.

Quote: Evenbob

They don't 'go' anywhere. They
aren't waiting for anything, they're
dead. Jews are all about this life
being all there is.

Please make up your mind about what you think Jews believe. You first say there is nothing, then you are reminded of Shoel, then you say it means a tomb, then you remember that it is the place where they await the Resurrection, they you say they think this life is all there is. There was an outlier sect of Judaism who did not believe in the Resurrection but they are shown to be wrong by debating Jesus in the Gospels to the great delight of all the Jews. St. Paul also uses this division in Judaism to save his life from a riot and eventually be sent to Rome where he was killed. You need to sometimes just acknowledge you are wrong, you would end up looking much better.

Quote:

Ehrman
has a made this his life's work, he
has facts and logical proof for all
his findings.

I'm sure he thinks he does. Do you remember that little clip you showed the other day. I pointed out in five minutes a factual error of his that was really strange he didn't know it or forgot it. Remember it was about Claudius expelling the Jews because of Christus in around the year 50 AD. He seemed oblivious to this and it is fairly well know and documented.